Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

What would YOU change in the W:tA setting?

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • I have considered two changes with regard to lineage and breeding. First, I think the breed of a Garou (or kinfolk offspring) should be determined by the non-Garou parent, not the mother. It's just weird to me (even considering the premise and all that) that an ordinary human man could have ordinary wolves as his biological children, if his mate were a lupus Garou.

    The other thing would be making all shifter kinfolk non breed specific. That is, a human is simply kinfolk or not, rather than Garou kin, or Gurahl kin, or whatever specifically. Children of two kinfolk who undergo the change would favor their most recent shifter ancestor 99% of the time, making throwbacks rare. Family is still family in the conventional sense, of course, but it would add control of kinfolk populations as a point of conflict between breeds.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Impeesa View Post
      I have considered two changes with regard to lineage and breeding. First, I think the breed of a Garou (or kinfolk offspring) should be determined by the non-Garou parent, not the mother. It's just weird to me (even considering the premise and all that) that an ordinary human man could have ordinary wolves as his biological children, if his mate were a lupus Garou.

      The other thing would be making all shifter kinfolk non breed specific. That is, a human is simply kinfolk or not, rather than Garou kin, or Gurahl kin, or whatever specifically. Children of two kinfolk who undergo the change would favor their most recent shifter ancestor 99% of the time, making throwbacks rare. Family is still family in the conventional sense, of course, but it would add control of kinfolk populations as a point of conflict between breeds.
      The first part is a fairly common alteration, with the mother being forced to remain in the child's form instead of breed form for the later part of the pregnancy, and is one I considered adding. However, I've had a lot of fun with 'odd' Kin from the current setup, and don't mind it. (I also toyed with it requiring the CoG Rite, one more commonly known amongst other Breeds, for cross breeding in that manner.

      The other possibility is changing Garou to being 'fully human' in human form and 'fully wolf' in wolf form. (IE, for purposes of Silver and Regeneration) rather than being 'out of breed form' being something vastly superior to natural examples of it.

      For the second, that would require a significant shift in Kinfolk. Keeping in mind Pure Breed still being the carrying of a family lineage, and access to Gifts that still acknowledge type. Additionally, Kinfolk aren't about 'weak breeding stock', they are family. Being just generic breeding stock turns them into cattle.

      Comment


      • Wow, I am going to have to sit down and read the whole Topic! But what I wanted to change is about spirits in World of darkness (mostly werewolf). they are one of the few things that are plot devices but over time, they have expanded to all games.

        I wanted to first make them look like other Player Characters! then centralize concepts in a spiritual point of view!

        Like:
        making sure the spirit can teach the gifts it is on the hook for
        making sure the powers that a possessed being has lined up to spirit charms
        making states that are unique to them yet fit in the world 's makeup!
        Make them a character sheet

        the list goes on!


        "Don't worry, it'll work out somehow." -
        You Asakura (Shaman King)


        Comment


        • Really, there are only two main things I would change about WtA. One is a bit subtle and the other subjective.

          Firstly, WtA is an oddball of all the WoD setting, in that it largely forgets/ignors teal world religions in favor of it's definitive Gaian cosmology. In all of the other games, the truth of reality is unknown. Maybe Caine existed, maybe not. But just because Caine did, that does not mean G_d/The One Above also did. In Mage, who the hell knows. I mean, literally, a monkey might have Awakened and rewritten the very fabric of everything to be the world we now know, or Pagan faiths are real, or there is no divinity, or whatever. All are viable, though perhaps not equally viable.

          WtA, however, essentially establishes that Gaia, the Triad, spirits, etc... are all 100% factual things. But that leaves a lot of real world faiths, well badically unrepresented in a setting that is suppossed to be set in a real-world-like place somewhere between the X Files and Sin City, making say a fervent Muslim Garou, well stupid. I know, thinking too hard about it and it makes no sense, but it has been in the setting since the start.

          Now, I am NOT saying drop Gaia, the Triad, and all the Garou mythology. Instead, I simply mean to make it more of a faith than a fact. Present it as one of the most commonly held rationalizations by trying to incorporate various Tribe's stories, (with a shit load of inconsitencies), but with some things unexplainable.

          Secondly, focus a bit more on Garou being monstrous rather than as heroic. Like I mentioned, a bit subjective, and Revised tried this a bit. So it is kind of hard to say just how much this would need to change, table to table. We see some, off screen, about how bad Garou are to kinfolk, and there is the occasional "oh, my bad" for Rage/Frenzy, but these seem mostly swept under the rug because no one really knows the real truth of the universe as a Gaian warrior.

          Anyway, those are my two thoughts.


          Comment


          • Originally posted by Beckett View Post
            Really, there are only two main things I would change about WtA. One is a bit subtle and the other subjective.

            Firstly, WtA is an oddball of all the WoD setting, in that it largely forgets/ignors teal world religions in favor of it's definitive Gaian cosmology. In all of the other games, the truth of reality is unknown. Maybe Caine existed, maybe not. But just because Caine did, that does not mean G_d/The One Above also did. In Mage, who the hell knows. I mean, literally, a monkey might have Awakened and rewritten the very fabric of everything to be the world we now know, or Pagan faiths are real, or there is no divinity, or whatever. All are viable, though perhaps not equally viable.

            WtA, however, essentially establishes that Gaia, the Triad, spirits, etc... are all 100% factual things. But that leaves a lot of real world faiths, well badically unrepresented in a setting that is suppossed to be set in a real-world-like place somewhere between the X Files and Sin City, making say a fervent Muslim Garou, well stupid. I know, thinking too hard about it and it makes no sense, but it has been in the setting since the start.

            Now, I am NOT saying drop Gaia, the Triad, and all the Garou mythology. Instead, I simply mean to make it more of a faith than a fact. Present it as one of the most commonly held rationalizations by trying to incorporate various Tribe's stories, (with a shit load of inconsitencies), but with some things unexplainable.

            Secondly, focus a bit more on Garou being monstrous rather than as heroic. Like I mentioned, a bit subjective, and Revised tried this a bit. So it is kind of hard to say just how much this would need to change, table to table. We see some, off screen, about how bad Garou are to kinfolk, and there is the occasional "oh, my bad" for Rage/Frenzy, but these seem mostly swept under the rug because no one really knows the real truth of the universe as a Gaian warrior.

            Anyway, those are my two thoughts.
            Those two thoughts won’t be exclusive to you, since the lack of such elements is one of the reasons that kept me away from this game.


            MtAw Homebrew: Even more Legacies, updated to 2E

            Comment


            • I know its not unique to me, but I also know that a very vocal WtA fanbase here is very against it.


              Comment


              • Originally posted by Beckett View Post
                I know its not unique to me, but I also know that a very vocal WtA fanbase here is very against it.
                As one of the aformentioned fanbase, for me the garou as monsters theme would undercut the fact that garou are people. People can be very very good or very very bad, and that to me is the crux of the issues in WtA. It is people from various sides and various viewpoints clashing against one another while trying to save the world. In a culture that endorses child abuse, domestic slavery, ableism and just plain old murder. Yet, these are very much our only hope and some do rise above the stereotypes of their culture.

                To paint garou as monsters, it takes away the fact that they always could have chosen to -not- do the horrid things that they did. That they could have as easily used their influence for the better. But they didn't, instead becoming an abusive horror to their kinfolk and those weaker than them. A monster is what monster does, it never had a choice for the contrary. That isn't very interesting to me, as there was never a chance it could have chosen another path.

                Then again, I see pretty much any WoD character as a person. No matter how horrid the deed, a human has done it and done -worse-.

                In terms of the world building, if garou were to be more darker than they are, then BSDs and the Wyrm should not be such a legit threat to the world and not as clearly in the wrong. Otherwise, there is too much dark. BSDs are not player characters, because they are out to just defile and destroy and rape and all that. Sabbat still has a goal that is in theory noble, and they don't have underground breeding pits with radiation. Even if a BSD is relatively reasonable, they do still partake in those above activities without a question.

                I think Werewolf the Forsaken tried to even the scales and make the Uratha more vague. By second edition, they succeeded. Only issue is that the Pure are still pretty mustache twirly and so don't really make you go 'but what if they are in the right?'. The situation being ambigious is when I myself am more open to having no side clearly be better than the other.

                Please note that it isn't because I'm squeamish about darker things. While my favourite clan is Tzimisce, I am often tired of the cenobite aping Tzimi whose whole shtick is that. Not because I find it gruesome, but because it says nothing of the character themselves. Then again, I do not consider Cenobites themselves to be evil. They are creatures of excess sensations, coming when called fort. They are neither good or evil, they just are. The tzimisce who takes that role isn't a spirit, they once were a human. There has to be more to them than seeking sensations or gore, because they never truly stopped being a person even after embrace.
                Last edited by Ana Mizuki; 03-11-2018, 12:10 PM.


                My gallery.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Ana Mizuki View Post

                  Then again, I do not consider Cenobites themselves to be evil. They are creatures of excess sensations, coming when called fort. They are neither good or evil, they just are.
                  Not to derail...but that's what Clive Barker was going for with his novel, it was everyone else involved in the Hell Raiser film franchise that messed that up.

                  (Just wanted to affirm that you're right)

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by CeltSPZ View Post

                    Not to derail...but that's what Clive Barker was going for with his novel, it was everyone else involved in the Hell Raiser film franchise that messed that up.

                    (Just wanted to affirm that you're right)
                    It goes into my point, tbh. Making the cenobites into evil monsters seeking world domination took away what made them so interesting. The cenobites don't just randomly attack people, they need to be summoned by people who are in the know of a puzzle box, and who have enough will and ennui to solve it. In the second movie (which I think was written by Barker?) they even let the girl who solved the puzzle for a doctor be as SHE was not the real person wanting them around. The evil, therefore, comes from the humans that seek them.

                    Such moral grayness works if it isn't contrasted by something darker. Garou are the heroes as long as Wyrm and its minions are around. This is why any morally very gray WtA games should either take place in the middle ages or before, or post-apocalypse where it becomes garou vs garou.

                    Plus, the issues with kinfolk abuse and destructive frenzies are stuff that the ST running the game has to enforce. The books can't help if the game itself isn't pushing that angle.


                    My gallery.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Ana Mizuki View Post

                      It goes into my point, tbh. Making the cenobites into evil monsters seeking world domination took away what made them so interesting. The cenobites don't just randomly attack people, they need to be summoned by people who are in the know of a puzzle box, and who have enough will and ennui to solve it. In the second movie (which I think was written by Barker?) they even let the girl who solved the puzzle for a doctor be as SHE was not the real person wanting them around. The evil, therefore, comes from the humans that seek them.

                      Such moral grayness works if it isn't contrasted by something darker. Garou are the heroes as long as Wyrm and its minions are around. This is why any morally very gray WtA games should either take place in the middle ages or before, or post-apocalypse where it becomes garou vs garou.

                      Plus, the issues with kinfolk abuse and destructive frenzies are stuff that the ST running the game has to enforce. The books can't help if the game itself isn't pushing that angle.

                      Right again on Hellraiser II being written by Barker. The movies went down hill after they lost site of what makes cenobites unique in horror.

                      Anyway, its why I like WtA so much. You CAN have your grey, its just against something like the forces of the forces of the Wyrm its easy to mistake the middle ground as either black or white. I have an antagonist in my game that's a Nuwisha, who frequently messes with the players. They are convinced he's evil and of the wyrm because he puts them in dangerous situations, and at times creates problems for them with other Gaian forces. The fun is, my players are convinced he is evil IC and OOC because people mistake "not with us" as evil, and "with us" as good so easily.
                      Last edited by CeltSPZ; 03-11-2018, 02:35 PM.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Cptmachine View Post
                        My only serious change which is something I personally changed in my own game revolves around side stepping through the gauntlet.

                        I like to insist on a reflective surface to even attempt the feat and I don’t just mean polishing your glaive or a hand mirror but something that’s at least big enough for the garou to pass through. In modern times it means it’s very hard to find something like that in the wild beyond a river, stream or pond. Although if the guanlet is weak enough it’s possible to do this without aid or by accident. Looking sideways is done in a similar way meaning it is possible to look before you jump as it were.
                        I do the exact same thing. It annoys players, but they get used to it. I don't want stepping sideways to be mundane or something can happen anytime it is convenient. Players have to plan for it. It makes jaunts into the umbra more like an actual spirit quest. Of course that goes the same for the bad guys as well.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Beckett View Post
                          Really, there are only two main things I would change about WtA. One is a bit subtle and the other subjective.

                          Firstly, WtA is an oddball of all the WoD setting, in that it largely forgets/ignors teal world religions in favor of it's definitive Gaian cosmology. In all of the other games, the truth of reality is unknown. Maybe Caine existed, maybe not. But just because Caine did, that does not mean G_d/The One Above also did. In Mage, who the hell knows. I mean, literally, a monkey might have Awakened and rewritten the very fabric of everything to be the world we now know, or Pagan faiths are real, or there is no divinity, or whatever. All are viable, though perhaps not equally viable.

                          WtA, however, essentially establishes that Gaia, the Triad, spirits, etc... are all 100% factual things. But that leaves a lot of real world faiths, well badically unrepresented in a setting that is suppossed to be set in a real-world-like place somewhere between the X Files and Sin City, making say a fervent Muslim Garou, well stupid. I know, thinking too hard about it and it makes no sense, but it has been in the setting since the start.

                          Now, I am NOT saying drop Gaia, the Triad, and all the Garou mythology. Instead, I simply mean to make it more of a faith than a fact. Present it as one of the most commonly held rationalizations by trying to incorporate various Tribe's stories, (with a shit load of inconsitencies), but with some things unexplainable.
                          In my games I try to run it that the Garou have sufficient knowledge that there are things they know to a great detail (the Middle Umbra), but they are actually quite ignorant about a lot of things (everything else). And their mythology, while correct in many broad strokes, simplifies lots of things and ignores other. This means more work for me as an ST, as I have to know the "real" truth which is different from how the Garou NPCs understand it. The PCs know what the Garou think (what's in the core book), and it is up to them to figure out if anything is different (and does it matter from a practical perspective).

                          The Triat is real in the sense that Mage tells us that Dynamism, Stasis, and Entropy are real. But the Triat is simply anthroposized versions of the Metaphysic Trinity. Much like the old koan that if You see the Buddha, Kill the Buddha, if the Garou ever encounter the Wyld, Weaver, or Wyrm, it must assuredly is not. That does not mean the Garou have reached their level of understanding - they obviously have not. Certain individual Garou (most likely Theurges, especially from tribes like Stargazers, Children of Gaia, and Uktena) might have realized this. They might even have brought up the subject now and then, but the reaction from all other Garou convince them that is not a wise thing to do (you don't cast pearls before swine, especially if they might kill you because of it) so they keep silent.

                          "The Wyrm" is simply their explanation for the Problem of Evil in philosophy, and anytime they discover something they don't like, they call it that even if they're not really related. Demons from the High Umbra are the Wyrm as are Spectres from the Dark Umbra, as are any minions in the Middle Umbra they corrupt. As are Deep Umbral invaders whose presence here is toxic to the biosphere (the Martian's Red Weed from HG Wells, the Thing in Carpenter's 1982 movie, Lovecraft's Colours Out of Space). Primal forces of Chaos like Titans, Jotuns, and Dragons that would unmake everything back to where it was (which are the original opponents of the Garou). Mages make distinctions between the various Nephandi, but the Garou would see that as mere sophistry. Perhaps useful in some way, but it dangerously goes down a path of relativism that might undermine their fanaticism which is needed to destroy the Wyrm.

                          But my perspective is based from my initial exposure to the game lines in First Edition when everything was one huge game, and I use a more Lovecraftian or Cosmic Horror interpretation in my Werewolf games which means the Garou actually don't know everything and can often be wrong. In practice, being wrong does not necessarily mean the Garou can't end the immediate threat. They are really good at that.

                          Secondly, focus a bit more on Garou being monstrous rather than as heroic. Like I mentioned, a bit subjective, and Revised tried this a bit. So it is kind of hard to say just how much this would need to change, table to table. We see some, off screen, about how bad Garou are to kinfolk, and there is the occasional "oh, my bad" for Rage/Frenzy, but these seem mostly swept under the rug because no one really knows the real truth of the universe as a Gaian warrior.
                          I actually think Revised went in the other direction, eliminating the obviously monstrous in favor of some kind of epic high fantasy. For instance, almost every tribe had an obviously monstrous camp in the original tribebooks. Multiple tribes had camps which encouraged eating people. There were lots of camps that existed merely to go after and fight other tribes. There were camps that dealt with a lot of forbidden knowledge with the arrogance that they would learn more about the Wyrm, but not be corrupted by it. Lots of things that an ST could use to bring division, conflict, and establish enemies within the Garou. And most of that was wiped out in Revised.

                          From their own perspective, the Garou should be heroic - Bronze Age Greek Myths of heroes. From humanity's perspective however, they should see them as dangerous monsters - folklore and many movies. From the kinfolk's perspective, they should see Garou as tragic creatures killing other monsters - the perspective of Lon Chaney, Jr movies. This takes work from the ST to keep this up, but it can work well. Just don't fall into the temptation to gloss over over or avoid those aspects of the Garou which conflict with their own prejudices (we're heroes) but confirms those of humans and kinfolk.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Impeesa View Post
                            I have considered two changes with regard to lineage and breeding. First, I think the breed of a Garou (or kinfolk offspring) should be determined by the non-Garou parent, not the mother. It's just weird to me (even considering the premise and all that) that an ordinary human man could have ordinary wolves as his biological children, if his mate were a lupus Garou.
                            I do the same. I understand the reasons for that decision, but the non-Garou mate being the deciding breed just makes too much sense to me.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Beckett View Post
                              Really, there are only two main things I would change about WtA. One is a bit subtle and the other subjective.

                              Firstly, WtA is an oddball of all the WoD setting, in that it largely forgets/ignors teal world religions in favor of it's definitive Gaian cosmology. In all of the other games, the truth of reality is unknown. Maybe Caine existed, maybe not. But just because Caine did, that does not mean G_d/The One Above also did. In Mage, who the hell knows. I mean, literally, a monkey might have Awakened and rewritten the very fabric of everything to be the world we now know, or Pagan faiths are real, or there is no divinity, or whatever. All are viable, though perhaps not equally viable.

                              WtA, however, essentially establishes that Gaia, the Triad, spirits, etc... are all 100% factual things. But that leaves a lot of real world faiths, well badically unrepresented in a setting that is suppossed to be set in a real-world-like place somewhere between the X Files and Sin City, making say a fervent Muslim Garou, well stupid. I know, thinking too hard about it and it makes no sense, but it has been in the setting since the start.

                              Now, I am NOT saying drop Gaia, the Triad, and all the Garou mythology. Instead, I simply mean to make it more of a faith than a fact. Present it as one of the most commonly held rationalizations by trying to incorporate various Tribe's stories, (with a shit load of inconsitencies), but with some things unexplainable.

                              Secondly, focus a bit more on Garou being monstrous rather than as heroic. Like I mentioned, a bit subjective, and Revised tried this a bit. So it is kind of hard to say just how much this would need to change, table to table. We see some, off screen, about how bad Garou are to kinfolk, and there is the occasional "oh, my bad" for Rage/Frenzy, but these seem mostly swept under the rug because no one really knows the real truth of the universe as a Gaian warrior.

                              Anyway, those are my two thoughts.
                              As a crossover-friendly person, this is my go-to.

                              Garou interact with Umbral Spirits, and the ones who are in the Garou Nation generally hold up the Triat and Gaia as facts. However, it's just one way of looking at things.

                              It's entirely possible that the Garou's understanding of the world might be completely wrong. Then again, they might be right, or half-right. Same as with literally everyone else. So a faithful Muslim or Buddhist or Christian or an ardent Atheist who go through the First Change won't necessarily find themselves revising all that they believe (well, at the same time they might). A Christian might decide that everything they're experiencing is just a different side to life that they weren't aware of, but that doesn't mean that the Christian message is wrong. The Old Testament and New Testament are heavy on spirits that lie outside of God's direct purview, for example. An Atheist might argue that this is all rational and scientific, simply a rational and scientific part of reality that she doesn't understand. The existence of a spiritual plane doesn't automatically signify that there must be some divine creator who is worthy of worship.

                              Another change I make is that Spirits are less... like multi-tools. Spirits are teachers and guides, they give Garou and understanding of the world, they teach Gifts, and they can be your allies. What they most certainly are not is CCTV, attack dogs or henchmen.

                              "I ask the Spirit if they saw someone running past."

                              "The Stag Spirit does not seem to understand the question; it occurs to you that whether or not someone has just run past doesn't full under the auspice of the animistic representation of local deer."

                              The idea is that spirits are properly alien, and they are concerned with things that are very different from what concerns humans (and Werewolves). A Tree Spirit can't tell you if someone just ran past and what way they went, but it can express its sorrow at the constant pollution of the soil, and help you get a sense of what is causing the pollution. Likewise the Stag would be able to help you if you were searching for a game hunter who was killing wolves and deer in the area. And as always, these Spirits can help with teaching Gifts, Abilities and Attributes.
                              Last edited by 11twiggins; 03-11-2018, 04:16 PM.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by glamourweaver View Post

                                That's something I've been wrestling with as well. Zettler's existence was obviously rooted in 1st edition, when the Sabbat were generically super-evil vampires, who naturally ran in packs with Black Spiral Dancers. How the Sabbat has been defined since then makes Zettler clearly anathemic to everything the Sabbat is about. He's a Masquerade upholding executive trying to bring about what the rest of the Sabbat would see as Gehenna via what they'd see as Infernalism.

                                On one hand part of me wants to drop a clear relic of a thinking about the Sabbat and how the gamelines interacted that stopped being canon. A Malfean Nephandi would seem a better crossover fit for the Pentex Board anyway, if one wanted a crossover.

                                On the other hand, there's a potentially cool story about the Sabbat Inquisition closing in on Zettler!
                                The Sabbat is a "House of Contradictions", first and foremost.

                                Down with Elder Worship!

                                Pay no attention to the Elders behind the curtain!

                                You have what amounts to Elder worship among the Lasombra and the Tzimisce.

                                Down with Infernalism!

                                Pay no attention to the Infernals behind the curtain!

                                Koldunism is dangerously close to being infernal, and is only tolerated (canonically) for political reasons. You cannot call such powerful Cainites infernalists, or call the Inquisition on them. Same goes with the Abyss Mystics, who are really antithetical to the Sabbat.

                                Freedom! Freedom from control and tyranny!

                                Please try and ignore the Bishops dosing up the Vaulderie at huge events with greater and greater doses of their blood!

                                Zettler is working with a group that is really antithetical to the Sabbat. What else is new? If he's bringing in allies and resources for whatever Cainite is "above" him in the Sabbat, then he's doing fine. Until he isn't. House of contradictions and all.

                                Comment

                                Working...
                                X