Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

How are werewolves impacted by vicissitude?

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • How are werewolves impacted by vicissitude?

    So I know (from reading a few threads) that you guys LOVE "what if a vampire did xyz" to a werewolf threads, so I want to start with: No malice here, just curious about something and I know you know the answer and that beats buying and reading a bunch of books I don't otherwise need.

    Let's assume a vampire with high level vicissitude uses it on a werewolf. He doesn't use it offensively to cause damage levels, instead shifts muscle and bone around until the werewolf is immobilized. Mechanically, level 2 vicissitude can trade OUT strength dots for soak pool and I assume (please correct me if I'm wrong) that leaving a victim at 0 strength leaves them unable to effectively move. But the fluff of levels 2 and 3 also say the vampire can leave the victim completely inhuman, and fiction and art show fused amalgams with 8 legs etc... so I also assume it would be trivial to simply re-absorb limbs into the body or tie them in knots etc...

    Question is: what impact does this have on werewolves? Can they regenerate out of it? Does shifting forms undo it?

    While I'm asking weird questions, do werewolves have to eat and breathe? Or does NOT doing those things just cause damage, which they regenerate?

  • #2
    According to the Storyteller's Guide, Vis regenerated just like aggravated damage.

    Comment


    • #3
      Well, this is crossover territory, so... whoever is in charge of the game makes the rules. Generally werewolves are pretty hard to permanently alter. The fact that they are hybrids of spirit and flesh means that even if you warp the flesh, the spirit re-asserts itself. In WtA, really grievous damage can do things like remove limbs or lead to a perpetually punctured lung, but the werewolf will still regenerate their health levels. I think it would be hard to make consistent, specific changes- although mutilating a werewolf is certainly possible if one is careful not to go overboard and kill the subject (although restraining it can be... challenging). Even if a werewolf was successfully given things like extra limbs or organs, there is a chance they might worry at their own twisted bodies and tear off the appendages or disembowel themselves.

      I would expect an elder Tzimisce with some powerful Wyrm-juju to back it up would have more success than a stripling fresh from grave, but that's just me.

      Garou do indeed need to eat and breath, but there are gifts that can partially alleviate these needs. Garou can starve and suffocate, but it takes a hella long time. Throttling a werewolf is not a dependable means of dispatching one.
      Last edited by The Laughing Stranger; 03-04-2017, 12:30 PM.

      Comment


      • #4
        By the rules it heals back fairly quickly, the same as aggravated damage. I could certainly imagine that some Methuselah's Vicissitude could be more resistant to healing, perhaps requiring Gifts or the assistance of spirits, but such a thing should be truly rare and exceptional. By and large a Tzimisce could certainly inconvenience a werewolf through the use of body twisting, or even make it helpless for a while, but generally speaking I would expect that a werewolf's body (or that of most other fera) would eventually return to its natural form thanks to their superior healing capabilities.

        Comment


        • #5
          Thanks very much! This is exactly what I wanted to know. Appreciate your expertise.

          Comment


          • #6
            Answers were pretty much covered already, but I figured I'd chime in anyways.
            Originally posted by The Laughing Stranger View Post
            Well, this is crossover territory, so... whoever is in charge of the game makes the rules.
            Pretty much this.

            Different books offer different rulings because the authors usually weren'tt on the same page. I'm not sure which ST Handbook says Vis heals as Agg, but I remember that rule being somewhere as well. W:tDA (p.163) has a conflicting rule that says Vis heals as non-Agg on Garou (which would be much much faster), but that could also be edition weirdness. When it comes down to it, you (or your ST) will go with whatever feel appropriate for your story.
            Oh, and for another weird example: there was a Keeper of the Land that was written up in Caerns: Places of Power (p63-64) that was permanently disfigured using Vis. That book though had some really questionable writing choices, so I wouldn't put much stock in that (the idea that it can't be healed).

            And on top of base regeneration, Garou have fairly easy access to magical healing as well which will have to be factored into crossover on how it interacts with Vis alterations. Especially the non damage alternations since most of the time healing powers only have a system for health levels.

            Edit to add: The one time it came up for one of my games, I went with the healing as Agg route. Although in the meantime, the Garou's regeneration "healed" the area affected back to the altered state.
            During the PC's Rite of Passage they encountered a Vis using Vampire and one of the PC's leg got bent the wrong way (midway up his thigh) from an attack. After the fight, the pack waited a few minutes and it didn't heal so they decided to assist the healing process by breaking the character's leg over a tree trunk, only to have the leg heal back to the bent shape. When that didn't work, they decided to do it again, but splint it straight to assist the healing. It was a pretty messed up scene where that character's pack was holding him down and repeatedly breaking his leg.
            When it came down to it, I wasn't going to permanently disfigure a character's mobility during their first session so when they got back to the Caern (with this character limping the entire way in pain with his splinted leg) the elders there took the splint off and told the PC to remain in an alternate form for a day and see how they felt after. A day or 2 later the character was all better and the players got lessons in how good Garou regeneration can be, and how dangerous Vampires can be if you don't take them seriously. It was a good session.
            Last edited by idpersona; 03-04-2017, 12:11 PM.


            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by idpersona View Post
              Answers were pretty much covered already, but I figured I'd chime in anyways.

              Pretty much this.

              Different books offer different rulings because the authors usually weren'tt on the same page. I'm not sure which ST Handbook says Vis heals as Agg, but I remember that rule being somewhere as well. W:tDA (p.163) has a conflicting rule that says Vis heals as non-Agg on Garou (which would be much much faster), but that could also be edition weirdness. When it comes down to it, you (or your ST) will go with whatever feel appropriate for your story.
              Oh, and for another weird example: there was a Keeper of the Land that was written up in Caerns: Places of Power (p63-64) that was permanently disfigured using Vis. That book though had some really questionable writing choices, so I wouldn't put much stock in that (the idea that it can't be healed).

              And on top of base regeneration, Garou have fairly easy access to magical healing as well which will have to be factored into crossover on how it interacts with Vis alterations. Especially the non damage alternations since most of the time healing powers only have a system for health levels.

              Now that has some interesting implications that maybe DAMAGE from vicissitude is healed as (agg or non agg whichever) but that modification w/o damage is permanent.

              I had assumed, before I asked that modifications could NOT be healed because people/ghouls can not heal them ever, and (again I assume) that they become the new "template" your body heals towards, but

              Originally posted by The Laughing Stranger View Post
              ... The fact that they are hybrids of spirit and flesh means that even if you warp the flesh, the spirit re-asserts itself. ...
              could well imply that the "template" may well be spiritual in nature and NOT impacted by vicissitude and the reasons mortals or ghouls can't heal out of them has nothing to do with their natural form and everything to do with their healing being pathetic in comparison to a werewolf.

              I guess you guys are right, it depends on which of the options I find more interesting in my story:
              -An enraged werewolf that once it escapes may or may not frenzy all over or be grateful enough to spare those who helped it even though they are wyrm tainted.
              -A weird flesh lumped werewolf that is an interesting moral choice to pull in favors to get returned to normal and release, continue tormenting for the PCs own benefit, or mercy kill. (though if I know my PCs, they would go the torment for torment's sake route, which would be a good time to have a pack of werewolves have a vision or something and swoop in and ream them a new one)

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Matt_N View Post
                Now that has some interesting implications that maybe DAMAGE from vicissitude is healed as (agg or non agg whichever) but that modification w/o damage is permanent.

                I had assumed, before I asked that modifications could NOT be healed because people/ghouls can not heal them ever, and (again I assume) that they become the new "template" your body heals towards, but

                could well imply that the "template" may well be spiritual in nature and NOT impacted by vicissitude and the reasons mortals or ghouls can't heal out of them has nothing to do with their natural form and everything to do with their healing being pathetic in comparison to a werewolf.
                So I haven't found (I suppose since I didn't look) where in the ST is says it, so I'm unsure of the wording there. W:tDA specifically says modifications (without the damage component) heal. It also goes on to say that Mother's Touch won't heal modifications on mortals which seem to imply that it works against modifications on Garou (or why state that separately).
                To get a bit more particular, I would have Fleshcraft damage/modifications heal as normal damage and Bonecraft heal as Agg. Either way, a Garou should be able to heal the modifications naturally (outside of possible Elder levels of the Discipline being used). It's just a debate on how much time it will take to do so.

                Originally posted by Matt_N View Post
                I guess you guys are right, it depends on which of the options I find more interesting in my story:
                -An enraged werewolf that once it escapes may or may not frenzy all over or be grateful enough to spare those who helped it even though they are wyrm tainted.
                So this sounds like the powers are being used to fix something on the Werewolf? If that were the case, I don't actually think Frenzy would be on the table (barring personal experience issues the Garou might have with the idea). They would more just be left confused about why that just happened. Probably get themselves checked for Wyrm taint, and if there is some (nothing says there really needs to be) get themselves cleansed (a simple, common Rite).
                Originally posted by Matt_N View Post
                -A weird flesh lumped werewolf that is an interesting moral choice to pull in favors to get returned to normal and release, continue tormenting for the PCs own benefit, or mercy kill. (though if I know my PCs, they would go the torment for torment's sake route, which would be a good time to have a pack of werewolves have a vision or something and swoop in and ream them a new one)
                If the Gaoru gets away, then they will be able to heal it on their own given time. If not through their own base regeneration, then through magic (which non WtA players often seem to forget that Garou have an abundance of). If for whatever story reason the disfigurements were permanent, I think the Garou would probably undergo Rite of the Winter Wolf or find something to die fighting against.
                But honestly, if you think your players are just going to go the torment route, that makes most of these choices uninteresting and weakens the role Werewolves play in a VtM game. I personally wouldn't go with that then, for that specific reason.



                Comment


                • #9
                  Well, I guess I wasn't clear on that last bit.
                  I'm thinking of a single werewolf trapped somewhere. I know this is very difficult and/or relies on a lot of luck to get one that Can't just buff strength till it can rip apart anything holding it and/or step sideways and walk away but I'm willing to handwave that as "the vampire got super lucky and doesn't even realize just HOW lucky he got".

                  AND, I'm assuming that given a reasonable amount of time the werewolf just MAY escape on his own and/or others will come looking. However we're currently in short term so that hasn't happened YET.

                  But, since the vampire has vicissitude, it would make sense for them to shift the werewolf into a lump of flesh with no arms and no legs so they can't get away, can't fight back (unless you get into biting range) and would probably get bedsores if they didn't have mad regeneration.
                  As a vamp, you find a werewolf folded up into a nugget, wtf do you do with that, right? That's the moral choice I'm imagining. They COULD find someone else with vicissitude and help the poor thing, they could mercy kill it, or they could take it home for their own nefarious purposes (and assuming all the risks entailed with that)

                  But, while I could just handwave that and say it happens, I'd rather stay kinda sorta within established cannon*. So if that just won't work, I can have them essentially chained spread eagle and motionless to a wall 24/7. Again, there are plenty of WW builds that I'm 100% certain would just nope on out of there, killing the vamp (who isn't all THAT impressive) in the process, but I'm sure there are others that can't and we're assuming the vamp got super lucky and doesn't know how close to getting ripped limb from limb he got or that doom is probably on it's way.
                  In that case, you find this poor thing chained up and struggling, what do you do? You 100% can't take it with you (maybe with some set of mental powers but that's REALLY unlikely to be successful long term and iirc they can't be ghouled), it's just kill it (which would be hard) or let it go. If you let it go, there's a chance it'll chew you up on the way out, but it might not. Depends on enough factors that it's just luck really I assume.

                  * Which IS weird because for some things I know full well I'm not following the rules and my answer is "Meh. This is a supernatural world. Not everything is known and cookie cutter." and I'm 100% comfortable with that. But for SOME reason, this actually matters to me to verify. No idea why. Guess I'm just being weird.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Matt_N View Post


                    Now that has some interesting implications that maybe DAMAGE from vicissitude is healed as (agg or non agg whichever) but that modification w/o damage is permanent.
                    Not sure if I'm reading wrong but I thought now that I found my Werewolf Storyteller's Hand book I'd but the exact wording form p. 197 on Vis: "Garou heal Vicissitude alterations as if they were aggravated damage".

                    Yea with that said, I do get that people will change things however based on what game they are playing. Kinda like when there is a comicbook crossover, the character with their name on the cover gets to win. In VtM its not really important because vampires are the main characters, and its what's more fun for a vampire group. However if you're interested in what WtA has to say....that's different (as its geared to WtA players).

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by CeltSPZ View Post

                      Not sure if I'm reading wrong but I thought now that I found my Werewolf Storyteller's Hand book I'd but the exact wording form p. 197 on Vis: "Garou heal Vicissitude alterations as if they were aggravated damage".

                      Yea with that said, I do get that people will change things however based on what game they are playing. Kinda like when there is a comicbook crossover, the character with their name on the cover gets to win. In VtM its not really important because vampires are the main characters, and its what's more fun for a vampire group. However if you're interested in what WtA has to say....that's different (as its geared to WtA players).
                      That's pretty definitive. Sounds like the only way to permanently keep a WW vicissituded then is to never sleep and vamps are NOT good at that. So looks like no WW with no arms and legs then.

                      Thanks everyone who took the time to weigh in. I appreciate it.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Matt_N View Post
                        That's pretty definitive. Sounds like the only way to permanently keep a WW vicissituded then is to never sleep and vamps are NOT good at that. So looks like no WW with no arms and legs then.

                        Thanks everyone who took the time to weigh in. I appreciate it.
                        Mind you, prefacing this by saying that I can stop discussing this if you have the answers you need for your story (and if that's the case, just say so).

                        The above statement isn't entirely true.
                        First I would say, that I wouldn't put a find like this in a generic (non powerful Elder) Vampire's place. That really screws the thematic purpose of Werewolves in VtM. Not sure if there is a reason to specifically have the pathetic victim be Garou instead of a human (could even be human+ such as Sorcerer/Kinfolk/Kinain, etc.), if it's just a morality situation you want to bring about for the players.

                        But moving passed that, it would be possible to remove a Werewolf's arms and legs and keep them that way in the short term, though it is generally more complicated than it initially sounds. If they're kept in breed form (let's assume Homid) their regeneration doesn't work nearly as well, so that helps. Even if they are regenerating, it is the equivalent of 1 Agg a day. You get to decide just what "missing arms and legs" counts for equivalent damage. If you say it's 3 or 4 health levels, then the Werewolf would grow back stumps on day 1, and the Vampire can then remove said stumps when it gets up. You just have to do more "damage" then the Garou can heal in a day. It's a matter of upkeep.

                        Another thing to consider is whether or not the "damage" is soakable, which I've seen ruled both ways. If Fortitude would help resist modifications, then Garou get to soak (certainly outside of Breen form, generally speaking). But most of this stuff seems to be decided prior to the player's involvement, so you may not even need to worry about questions like these I suppose.


                        Comment


                        • #13
                          If a Garou rip of an army of another Garou with its claws, will the limb grow back again?

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by AgentSmith View Post
                            If a Garou rip of an army of another Garou with its claws, will the limb grow back again?
                            According to the ST Handbook (revised, p20), yes as long as it doesn't Battle Scar.


                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by idpersona View Post

                              According to the ST Handbook (revised, p20), yes as long as it doesn't Battle Scar.
                              Yeah, that was my doubt...

                              Could there be a way to Battle Scar (like) a Garou with Vis? Or, is the Battle Scar more of a spiritual thing than just flesh? (Considering that, at least in a way, the Garou dies and is born again when get one of those)

                              Comment

                              Working...
                              X