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How are werewolves impacted by vicissitude?

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  • #16
    No, Battle Scars can only occur when a Garou survives Incapacitation from Lethal or Aggravated damage or specific forms of Wyrm corrupted damage. Vicissitude is not mentioned as one of the causes of Battle Scars (though a combination Discipline of Potence 3 and Vicissitude 3 might be brutal enough). And it should be nearly impossible to keep a Garou from reaching temporary Rage 10 and joining full on Thrall of the Wyrm under those circumstances. A Homid Garou in full Thrall of the Wyrm will eat the Kindred alive.

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    • #17
      Originally posted by idpersona View Post
      Mind you, prefacing this by saying that I can stop discussing this if you have the answers you need for your story (and if that's the case, just say so).
      No, by all means. It's not going to be relevant in game for many sessions probably, so I have time to mess about with other ideas if need be and I find the material fascinating. I used to own a lot of the changing breed books back in the day, but never got to actually play so I'm not as familiar with it as I COULD be and then a blown in window soaked my entire gaming library while I was away from home on an extended trip and I lost almost everything to water damage and mold and never replaced them (or I'd look up this stuff myself).

      Originally posted by idpersona View Post
      The above statement isn't entirely true.
      First I would say, that I wouldn't put a find like this in a generic (non powerful Elder) Vampire's place. That really screws the thematic purpose of Werewolves in VtM. Not sure if there is a reason to specifically have the pathetic victim be Garou instead of a human (could even be human+ such as Sorcerer/Kinfolk/Kinain, etc.), if it's just a morality situation you want to bring about for the players.
      The morality situation is a nice after effect. The reason to specifically have a Garou (metis, which I didn't mention before) is because a semi-powerful ancillae lucked out and managed to briefly get his hands on one (probably an overconfident newbie werewolf wandered into the kindred's territory alone and the kindred got the drop on him and then got lucky), and then essentially used the free powerful blood to really overextend his reach and make a play to kill an diablerize many of the more powerful vampires in the city. So now he's pretty badass, and hopped up on werewolf blood (and thus probably frenzies at the drop of a hat), and that makes him the most dangerous kindred in town (that said, I have no illusions that if other werewolves come looking, this guy for all his newfound power is a light snack, especially since his "build" is in no way stealthy or lends to easy escape, more on that later) so he's essentially "story arc end boss material".

      Originally posted by idpersona View Post
      But moving passed that, it would be possible to remove a Werewolf's arms and legs and keep them that way in the short term, though it is generally more complicated than it initially sounds. If they're kept in breed form (let's assume Homid) their regeneration doesn't work nearly as well, so that helps. Even if they are regenerating, it is the equivalent of 1 Agg a day. You get to decide just what "missing arms and legs" counts for equivalent damage. If you say it's 3 or 4 health levels, then the Werewolf would grow back stumps on day 1, and the Vampire can then remove said stumps when it gets up. You just have to do more "damage" then the Garou can heal in a day. It's a matter of upkeep.

      Another thing to consider is whether or not the "damage" is soakable, which I've seen ruled both ways. If Fortitude would help resist modifications, then Garou get to soak (certainly outside of Breen form, generally speaking). But most of this stuff seems to be decided prior to the player's involvement, so you may not even need to worry about questions like these I suppose.
      So from what everyone is saying, since the vamp actually needs a fair amount of blood from this garou, he can't keep him in lupus or homid, (also hence why it probably needs to be metis. I rather it WASN'T metis, but I think I need it to be to keep bleeding him) he's got to be in a form that regens well, so being a flesh nugget is almost out of the question if I want to even remotely stick to something resembling the "rules".

      So here's all the details, maybe should have gone into this from the very start:
      Our vamp lives in the basement of an old one room church in the city park. He's got a dot or two in herd, which is a small cult that he leads at the church, posing as a high priest and hiding INSIDE the walls of the basement using vicissitude. One night he finds a lone garou wandering the park, doesn't REALLY know what he's getting into and decides to feed from it. He's super lucky and has managed to find probably the only garou in the tri state area that wouldn't immediately shred him, and after realizing how powerful the rush he gets, drags the poor thing back home and chains it up in his basement. Using the unlimited powerful vitae in just a few days he starts building his herd and accepting "sacrifices" from them which he embraces and melds with (this is where it starts getting SUPER handwavy) and eventually is inside all the walls of the church all the time, sending out tendrils in cloaks to officiate masses and command his herd. He can no longer hunt and his herd can no longer sustain him, but that doesn't matter because he is literally holding this garou inside his body and leeching it nonstop. He wants more power though, so he has his now ghouled herd lure powerful vampires to the church where he traps and diablerizes them. At this point though he's going insane from all the voices screeching in his head and he absorbs his cult too. Now he's almost animal and can trudge around the park like some sort of grotesque Yagga hut and spy on and attack distant areas with ridiculously long burrowing tendrils. On the one hand, this is a "holy fuck what the hell is THAT?" Resident Evil kind of end boss. On the other hand, a couple of molotovs might really be all someone needs to defeat it (mostly) because a vampire wedged into the walls of an old church is probably super flammable. (and like I said, once the garou's pack find him, well, how hard is it for a pack to destroy a wooden building, even one that can walk and with vampire powers. Not hard I'd assume, but I'm for the sake of story assuming the PCs find him first.) Of course, they could also just rip off most of the wood and leave the damned thing to face the sun or tear out the werewolf that's fuelling the whole thing and it'd shrivel up almost instantly. Any number of things. They might surprise me.

      Further ideas/ feedback?

      I don't know that I would have gone THIS over the top. I don't normally, but when I stated the premise of the campaign was that most of the vampires in Vegas had disappeared and the Chronicle was titled "What happened in Vegas" and the PCs would have to unravel the mystery I was told the solution had better be "Something big and not just some hunters or something." So here I am with a crazed Tsimitce in the shape of a church walking around the woods in the Shadow Creek nature preserve (we have a golf course there in real world vegas)

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      • #18
        I tend to err on the side of werewolves not being able to just say "lol, nope!" to any supernatural power trying to affect them, but as natural shapeshifters themselves it does make sense that attempts to warp their shape would be temporary at best. Vampires skilled in Vicissitude are accustomed to using it on human flesh or that of unchanging fellow vampires, not hybrid creatures who can make their bodies flow and change with an act of will. In addition to the healing as per aggravated damage rule, I'd probably let a werewolf escape the effects of flesh-/bonecrafting entirely in all its forms except the one it was in when altered while waiting for said healing to take place.

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        • #19
          Originally posted by Matt_N View Post

          ...and the Chronicle was titled "What happened in Vegas" ...
          This entire premise should offend every fiber of my soul...

          But it has style.

          And honestly, if that shit were to happen anywhere, it would have to be Vegas.


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          • #20
            I'd probably err on Werewolf rules if that deliberate comment on the ability of lupines to regenerate it, mostly because the rules in Vampire don't comment, far as I'm aware. Just says that mortals, ghouls, and higher gen Cainites cannot regenerate it. I would think Garou fall out of those categories.

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            • #21
              Well, maybe only a Koldun with Vis could do it permanently

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