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  • Vampires seeking Incarna

    Hi! I got this idea and it goes like this...
    There's this vampire, and he is one of the more spiritually-oriented ones (Rego Mentem et al), and he thinks there are any number of vampire Incarna (one in general, and mebbe one per clan or bloodlines). He's interested in contacting them, and mebbe making prayers (aka Exalted) and offering of blood and such. Probably not a priest, but perhaps a patron arrangement like pack Totems.

    1. Let's not argue about whether it is "canon" or not. Let's just assume thousands of years of belief in vampires means then DO have critters in the Umbra and go from there.

    Starting from there, I thought we might discuss the said characteristics or motivations of those Umbral critters, what they might offer (and want in exchange) or plot hooks.

  • #2
    See, the problem with going off of Exalted is that its approach to spirits is exactly the opposite of Werewolf. If there were a spirit of vampires at the end of a conceptual chain, you could ace it and destroy all vampires. Poof, gone from the universe.

    Since you're asking in this forum, the essential assumption is also going to be that any Incarna that deigns to not immediately destroy a vampire is going to either be very weird and off the ball, quite possibly in a way that makes it not act like the pact that the Gaian spirits have with Garou, or is corrupt/wholly made of Wyrm-stuff. It's possible that some corrupted bits of bat might play ball, for example, and the vampires would never know that they were having truck with something that was making them even worse, because they have no capacity to detect what they've pretty much become inured to by virtue of having it inside them all of the time and just accepting it as the way things are.

    Finally, as I noted in the other thread on the Vampire forum, they might only show up in the High or Dark Umbrae. Vampires have a much stronger connection to the land of the dead, so their spiritual kin might be better sought out there, while the Astral collects every last concept there is much more effectively than primal, living, Middle Umbra..

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    • #3
      Well going by masquerades own "mythology" you would have Cain, Lilith and antediluvians.

      Depending on your own take on paths (which could be viewed as a religion if you squint a little) could function as a way of worshipping said incarna (so basically make an incarna for each path). Since vampire is more of your judeo-christian style religion rather then the animism of werewolf.
      Last edited by BurritoMage; 03-08-2017, 03:03 AM.

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      • #4
        oh, vaguely related?

        think I saw some kind of spirit summoning ritual of thaumalagy, have Dark ages V20, hardback and masquerade V20 on PDF

        Though I think that would REALLY set garou off. if they found out about it.


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        • #5
          Originally posted by Saur Ops Specialist View Post
          See, the problem with going off of Exalted is that its approach to spirits is exactly the opposite of Werewolf. If there were a spirit of vampires at the end of a conceptual chain, you could ace it and destroy all vampires. Poof, gone from the universe.

          Since you're asking in this forum, the essential assumption is also going to be that any Incarna that deigns to not immediately destroy a vampire is going to either be very weird and off the ball, quite possibly in a way that makes it not act like the pact that the Gaian spirits have with Garou, or is corrupt/wholly made of Wyrm-stuff. It's possible that some corrupted bits of bat might play ball, for example, and the vampires would never know that they were having truck with something that was making them even worse, because they have no capacity to detect what they've pretty much become inured to by virtue of having it inside them all of the time and just accepting it as the way things are.

          Finally, as I noted in the other thread on the Vampire forum, they might only show up in the High or Dark Umbrae. Vampires have a much stronger connection to the land of the dead, so their spiritual kin might be better sought out there, while the Astral collects every last concept there is much more effectively than primal, living, Middle Umbra..
          Yeah, your best bet for an 'Incarna' of Vampires would be to search for Caine in the High Umbra. Since Caine would be the representation of betrayal in the High Umbra, anyone who permanently destroyed him would likely become the 'Incarna of Betrayal' and the 'Incarna of Kindred'. In fact, there would be no particular reason why 'Caine' could not have been replaced dozens of times throughout the course of human existence, with each new Caine becoming the 'Incarna of Betrayal' and the 'Incarna of Kindred' when they kill and replace the former Caine (which means that a number of prehistoric Mages could have gone off to destroy Caine, destroyed him, and immediately lost their Avatar when they 'ascended' to the status as 'Incarna of Betrayal' and the 'Incarna of Kindred'). The withering of the Gehenna scenarios could be explained as the effects of the recent replacement of Caine by a Kindred or a Mage and, after a few decades, it would go away as the new Caine became comfortable in his position.

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          • #6
            Originally posted by Prince of the Night View Post
            Though I think that would REALLY set garou off. if they found out about it.
            Why? Mages summon stuff all the time, pretty sure the same could be said of changelings and sorcerers.

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            • #7
              Because only the Garou who honour the pact, are entitled to command spirits.

              duh..


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              • #8
                The things that work best as 'vampire spirits' are things like Zillah, Lilith, or the Aralu, but those are all things that already exist within VtM's own mythology. I do not see the point of slapping on an 'umbral' coat of paint onto these beings. If you are going to use one of those, why even bother making them Incarna, thematically speaking? As Saur said, killing such a creature basically wipes out all vampires... and other, more spiritually potent supernaturals are not directly embodied by Incarna in any way...

                If you are wanting to use a spirit that might be friendly towards vampires, rather than a being that is an 'Avatar of all Vampires,' again, I gotta go with Saur's suggestion. An Aspect of the Bat Incarna would likely be a good fit. Bat is insane even by the alien standards of the spirits, and parts of its broken mind could easily be seeking to survive by courting vampires as replacements for his slaughtered children.

                If we are using WtA as a basis, most of the concepts associated with vampires condemns any spiritual representation of them to be of the Wyrm; a spirit of the brood of Eater of Souls would be happy to benefit from the unending hunger of the Kindred.

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by Prince of the Night View Post
                  Because only the Garou who honour the pact, are entitled to command spirits.
                  Says who? The Garou?

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by BurritoMage View Post

                    Says who? The Garou?
                    Is this another sock puppet? I swear every thread lately mutates into this same agonizing argument.

                    If you come to our forum, and you get response that feature a WEREWOLF perspective, it should not be surprising in the slightest.
                    Last edited by The Laughing Stranger; 03-08-2017, 05:52 PM.

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by The Laughing Stranger View Post

                      Is this another sock puppet? I swear every thread lately mutates into this same agonizing argument.

                      If you come to our forum, and you get a WEREWOLF perspective, it should not be surprising in the slightest.
                      Lol calm down, so anyone outside of the garou who summons a spirit is suddenly a bad guy because reasons? Even kinfolk? Other fera? Other fera's kinfolk?
                      Show me in the litany where it says only Garou have dominion over spirits.
                      Last edited by BurritoMage; 03-08-2017, 06:00 PM.

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                      • #12
                        I suppose Fera, summoning spirits is their Right, maybe kinfolk or even mages and sorcerers, who make properly humble requests, rather then demands.

                        but binding spirits, to cannibalize them for Quintiessence, or out of macabre curiousity, Merits a lethal response.


                        and a vampire in particular... is bad news.... show them that anyone who trys tampering with the spirit world gets them killed.


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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by BurritoMage View Post

                          Lol calm down, so anyone outside of the garou who summons a spirit is suddenly a bad guy because reasons? Even kinfolk? Other fera? Other fera's kinfolk?
                          Show me in the litany where it says only Garou have dominion over spirits.
                          They have a pact. There are bounds to it that they have to respect. Others might not have pacts that actually respect the spirits*. This is often how others with relationships to spirits come up as antagonists in Werewolf, and again, per what The Laughing Stranger said, Werewolf does tend to assume that most of the offenders are non-changers, because it's a source of antagonistic foils that can force self-introspection about feuds, fights, or disagreements with spirits about a variety of subjects. Sometimes, internal offenders also show up, and they have to be dealt with even more harshly, because oaths and chiminage are deadly serious affairs. Breaking those terms upsets the social fabric that they have with their distant kin and half of themselves.

                          *It's strange to asterisk this as a footnote, but the original point I was making about pacts was that if a spirit of the type requested in the OP does exist, there's no guarantee that it acts as a totem, teaches powers, etc., as those are all parts of a particular pact that Garou and Fera have. Ananasi and Nagah are, by and large, not a part of this network, and don't take on pack or personal totems, for example.

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by The Laughing Stranger View Post
                            Is this another sock puppet?
                            Please don't back-seat mod like this. If you suspect a rule violation, just report it and don't engage. And no, Burrito Mage is not a sock puppet.


                            Onyx Path Forum Moderator

                            My mod voice is red. I use it so you know when I'm speaking in an official capacity, not as an indication of tone.

                            Going by Willow now, or Wil for short. She/Her/Hers.

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Saur Ops Specialist View Post
                              It's strange to asterisk this as a footnote, but the original point I was making about pacts was that if a spirit of the type requested in the OP does exist, there's no guarantee that it acts as a totem, teaches powers, etc., as those are all parts of a particular pact that Garou and Fera have. Ananasi and Nagah are, by and large, not a part of this network, and don't take on pack or personal totems, for example.
                              That's why I suggested using the paths as a form of worship, it fits the theme of vampire better and since by and large most vampires are on humanity it would make the whole relationship between follower and that paths patreon incarna more alien to the outside observer.

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