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Vampires seeking Incarna

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  • #16
    Originally posted by BurritoMage View Post

    That's why I suggested using the paths as a form of worship, it fits the theme of vampire better and since by and large most vampires are on humanity it would make the whole relationship between follower and that paths patreon incarna more alien to the outside observer.
    Well, it won't be that alien if they use Patreon...

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    • #17
      Chimerage and taboos are hardly alien concepts to human beings. Every religion practices a form of each with their moral codes and required behaviors.

      The Paths (with the exception of the Path of the Feral Heart) are alien to even the spirits of the Middle Umbra because they represent ideals that are reflected in the High Umbra. Once again, you are better off looking in the High Umbra for spiritual patrons for Kindred than the Middle Umbra.

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      • #18
        Originally posted by Aya Tari View Post
        Chimerage and taboos are hardly alien concepts to human beings. Every religion practices a form of each with their moral codes and required behaviors.

        The Paths (with the exception of the Path of the Feral Heart) are alien to even the spirits of the Middle Umbra because they represent ideals that are reflected in the High Umbra. Once again, you are better off looking in the High Umbra for spiritual patrons for Kindred than the Middle Umbra.

        Shinto (which I've been practicing for 3 years) doesnt really.

        Contacted Reverend Barrish on Facebook, and asked about becoming an organ donor, on one hand I want to save lives, on the other, I worry that integrating the flesh of one who has died with oneself, may contaminate them with Kegare.

        he told me that Teachings of shinto on s uch issues are very hard to come to a satisfactory answer on.and I should "go with my heart feeling"


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        • #19
          Shinto has an entire family of specific taboos (Tsumi), including those relating to Kegare that apply to all practitioners and/or locations. Kegare, uncleanliness, occurs when practitioners and/or locations are exposed to childbirth, death, disease, and menstration. Kegare requires ritual cleaning (Misogi and Harae) to cleanse the practitioner and/or location. As for chimerage, Shinto prayers and rituals could be considered to be a form of chimerage, as could Kannagara, the ethical system of Shinto, and Imi, the avoidance of Shinto shrines before undergoing purification.

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          • #20
            I mean, if we are defining 'chiminage' broadly as 'action that pleases/appeases a spiritual entity,' I think that is what most religions are about, right? Shinto is no exception.

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            • #21
              I guess if worst came to worst, you could always go to the TV Realm and have a chat with this guy.

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              • #22
                I recite Nippashi at the park every morning, ideally at the exact moment the sun rises... Toyed with keeping a Kamidana, but it would be too costly.


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                • #23
                  Hey folks, just to be clear I'm not proposing following the "kill an incarna and kill all vampires", nor am I strictly following the "let's be Totem buddies" route. I'm thinking of vampire jagglings/gafflings/incarna as representing aspects of vampire existence. More of a patron, or possibly source of knowledge (with the understanding there is always Quid Pro Quo, preferably in ongoing sacrifices of blood). Just to be clear.

                  So, assuming there are vampire spirits running around from the Dark Umbra to Astral, what might they want in return for knowledge?

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                  • #24
                    What ever spirits of vampires want I guess? blood? Make more vampires?

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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by g3taso View Post
                      So, assuming there are vampire spirits running around from the Dark Umbra to Astral, what might they want in return for knowledge?
                      Honestly if "vampire spirits" did exist, due to how inherently corrupt vampires are in the Werewolf setting, vampire spirits would probably be some sort of Bane spirit. And as Wyrm spirits, they're going to want you to do some pretty dark stuff, probably propagating and making more vampires, engaging in various dark rituals, sacrificing innocent blood, etc. Vampires aren't just considered monsters by humanity at large, they are tainted, unnatural, unholy monsters on the spiritual level. And any spirits tied to them are going to be similarly unholy and monstrous.

                      Most likely any vampires making deals with them would easily be confused for making deals with demons - if you're part of the Sabbat, you should hope the Inquisition doesn't catch on because few of them will go home when you say, "Oh it's not a demon, it's a Wyrm spirit. So we're cool."

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                      • #26
                        What is honestly the difference between Wyrm Spirits and Demons in the minds of 99.9% of the creatures in cWoD? Wyrm Spirits are Demons to Kindred, Demons are Wyrm Spirits to Fera. Really, the only people who would bother differentiating between the two would be Sorcerers with the Path of Summoning because it matters for the purposes of the Numina.

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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by g3taso View Post
                          So, assuming there are vampire spirits running around from the Dark Umbra to Astral, what might they want in return for knowledge?
                          The same thing any other demons/banes would want. They want to turn people into their servants and eventual slaves (by corrupting them) and give up as little power/knowledge as needed to get that. If you have access to any of the sourcebooks on infernalism, you should read up on them.

                          Demons are very strict - they only give as much knowledge/power to their pawns as they make Pacts with them (they'll eagerly give less power/knowledge than a Pact would allow (who cares if the marks are too stupid to know they could have gotten more), but never, never, ever give more power/knowledge than a Pact warrants).

                          So how important is the knowledge the character is seeking? The more important, the greater service the character must give the demon.

                          Most likely, in the very beginning the vampire spirit gives one thing away almost for free - how to summon this particular spirit again (so he can continue to corrupt this character). This probably requires some kind of sacrifice (and what do you think a vampire spirit would want?) But anything else is going to require something. From lesser services to greater, there is probably some kind of hierarchy - most likely an inverted Path of Humanity (or inverted Paths of Enlightenment). The equivalent of Damnation to a vampire is losing themselves to the Beast - the vampire spirit wants to destroy the things that constrain the Beast and push them to level zero - basically turn them into a wight.

                          So figure out what kind of things would be worth it to the character to engage in behaviour that would require a morality check at each of the levels (one to ten). So someone already low on their Path of Enlightenment could probably get a lot of things for "free" (in the sense that while they have to do a task, it won't require them to make a morality check as they are already too debased).

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