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  • #46
    Originally posted by Lin Liren View Post
    Hmm, come to think about, that would make more logical sense. Sorry, just found South American Mythology so refreshingly original that I couldn't resist refrencing it. Okay, OUT goes the Blow-Hole.
    Rokea had similar with the mouth between the shoulder blades myth. You can add the blowhole in homid as a Gift to keep the inspiration/flavor of it.

    Originally posted by 11twiggins View Post
    That makes the role of the Foxes VERY similar to the Ratkin and the Weresnakes. The problem is when the roles start to overlap and things feel... clustered. Very clustered.
    Similar, though not the same as the Ratkin. But considering the Ratkin had failed their purpose by that point, there is something to be said for a new Breed being brought in, who are better at navigating sociopolitical environments as opposed to just having tools to mitigate numbers. And The Nagah do something entirely different so I'm not sure how you see overlap there. The Nagah solely judge Fera and their fulfilling of their jobs.

    Originally posted by 11twiggins View Post
    Here's my list, for posterity:
    Garou: Land Warriors

    Gurahl: Guides and Healers of Gaia's Children

    Apis: Guides for primitive humanity (failed in their role)

    Nagah: Assassins

    Nuwisha: Teachers. Used to be a global species, War of Rage changed that.

    Kitsune: Guides for civilized humanity (hence their late arrival)

    Grondr: Groomers, remove subtle wyrm taint and keep natural landscape in harmony (lacked a Crinos form, why would they even need one after all, and so were readily slaughtered)

    Ratkin: Population Control (Camazotz are a relative and hold the same purpose, along with a spiritual/biological ancestry in common)

    Mokole: The precursors to the Garou (yes, this is a change, I'm aware that they aren't "prehistoric Garou", I'm saying that it would make more sense if they were)

    Corax: Messengers

    Some other Bird Group: Sky Warriors

    Rokea: Sea Warriors

    Bastet: Information Gatherers... feels off. Firstly we have the Corax who are Messengers, and so we sort of assume that the Corax are good at collecting information. Secondly we have Lions. When we think of Lions, Jaguars, Cougars, even housecats... we don't really think of spies as our first thought. We could call them Leaders, and say that Gaia's intent was for the Bastet to rule over the other Changing Breeds and coordinate their roles. Due to fault in both the Bastet and the Garou, this fell apart and was one element of the War of Rage's origin. I'll say "Intended Rulers", since Cat played hard-to-get and wouldn't have accepted a lesser role. Plus Cats are naturally regal animals.

    Ajaba: Not a thing. There's no reason for them to be a thing, unless they're given a new role.

    Ananasi are supposed to be an abnormality, since they are the only non-Gaian breed (lets just ignore the frogs and roaches, shall we?) and so them covering every role is fine in my opinion. It reeks a little bit of "oh, you think this splat is good? Well THIS splat sees a much bigger picture, and uses the other Splat as pawns", the sort of thing that made Dirty Secrets of the Black Hand unpopular, but it's also weirdly realistic since spiders are so universal and so subtle.
    Your list is...odd. You don't want overlap, but you have "Guides" (3 times) and "Teachers". Is there a difference? Why does Gaia need an "Assassin" Breed (and does having one mean the Rakin lose Knife Skulkers since they're now redundant)? I think your list is just as arbitrary as the canon list, if not moreso. Out of you 13 Gaian Changers, 4 of them have the role of "warrior" and 4 of them are teachers of guides. So really, 2/3 of you list seem to fill just 2 roles. After those, you just have Assassins (again, why?), Groomers (No Crinos), Population Control (which also wouldn't need Crinos by your logic) and Messengers (again, wouldn't need a Crinos) and Information Gatherers (which you argue should be part of the Messenger role). And really, none of the "Guide/Teacher" roles need Crinos either.

    So if your reorganizing doesn't really fix anything (it doesn't seem to), then it seems questionable to put the work in.

    And again, I agree some of the Fera (Ajaba in particular) need role clarifications. But your approach doesn't actually do anything for that.


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    • #47
      More focused back on topic:
      Falcon Changers (I think I decided on since falcons over eagles since they seem to have a greater range)
      Helios' Warriors
      Vulnerable to Gold (No Silver weakness)
      3 Forms:
      Crinos: Str+3/Dex+3/Stam+3 and Flight
      Avian: Dex+4, Per+2
      (if I were to include eagles, I would just modify the stats by -1 Dex and +1 Str)

      Their Crinos stats don't match their animal stat inspirations because they don't have to. The strength bonus is really just about them being warriors.

      Rage based on Auspice (2, 3 or 4)
      Auspices: Spiritualists (Theurge), Judges (Philodox) and Fighters (Ahroun)
      Homid: Gnosis 2, Willpower 5
      Avian: Gnosis 4, Willpower 3

      The falcons would lack solid defensive Gifts but have a variety of Gifts to assist in hit and run tactics.
      After the Breed's destruction at the hands of the Garou, Falcon (the totem) stepped in to claim one of the newly emerging Tribes as his own (this assumed the Garou destroyed Falcon-changers prior to the Tribes forming obviously).

      If this idea was expanded to more bird species, I would have Owls with night and Umbra (including the Dark Umbra) oriented Gifts, Falcons with leadership and judgement Gifts, Eagles with the most combat focused Gifts. Hawks, falcons and eagles seem to hold some similar places in overall mythologies so I'm not sure where I would put hawks in all of this.

      It's far from a fully formed idea, but it's a start.
      Thoughts?


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      • #48
        I think that I would prefer the introduction of an Owl Fera. The Owl Fera would serve as the Warriors of the Air and the Warrior of the Night (as the Camazotz served as the secret messengers of Gaia). They would be capable of traveling into the Umbra by walking into the shadows, similar to the Camazotz.

        Since owls are silent predators, I would give them a -2 difficulty modifier to Stealth. I would give them forms similar to that of the Camazotz, though I would increase the Strength and Stamina of their forms by one each because owls are much stronger and tougher than bats. I would also give them Rage 1, Gnosis 5, and Willpower 3.
        Last edited by Aya Tari; 03-14-2017, 02:40 PM.

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        • #49
          Originally posted by idpersona View Post
          Similar, though not the same as the Ratkin. But considering the Ratkin had failed their purpose by that point, there is something to be said for a new Breed being brought in, who are better at navigating sociopolitical environments as opposed to just having tools to mitigate numbers. And The Nagah do something entirely different so I'm not sure how you see overlap there. The Nagah solely judge Fera and their fulfilling of their jobs.


          Your list is...odd. You don't want overlap, but you have "Guides" (3 times) and "Teachers". Is there a difference? Why does Gaia need an "Assassin" Breed (and does having one mean the Rakin lose Knife Skulkers since they're now redundant)? I think your list is just as arbitrary as the canon list, if not moreso. Out of you 13 Gaian Changers, 4 of them have the role of "warrior" and 4 of them are teachers of guides. So really, 2/3 of you list seem to fill just 2 roles. After those, you just have Assassins (again, why?), Groomers (No Crinos), Population Control (which also wouldn't need Crinos by your logic) and Messengers (again, wouldn't need a Crinos) and Information Gatherers (which you argue should be part of the Messenger role). And really, none of the "Guide/Teacher" roles need Crinos either.

          So if your reorganizing doesn't really fix anything (it doesn't seem to), then it seems questionable to put the work in.

          And again, I agree some of the Fera (Ajaba in particular) need role clarifications. But your approach doesn't actually do anything for that.
          My list has 3 types of warriors which are specifically delineated in their placement. My list also has three kinds of Guides which have specific roles and do their own thing.

          The Ratkin need a Crinos since population control sometimes means killing. Same with the Guides, as occasionally a Bear or Fox or Coyote will need to fight to defend a student. I simply can't see "Gaia's garbage-men" needing to fight, ever. They're roaming the plains eating up Bad Things like rotting corrupted environments and keeping balance in the biosphere, which is a role which needs Intelligence (justifying a Boar and Human form) but doesn't necessitate fighting. You could make them Groomers and Guardians of Caerns (justifying the Crinos), and that would explain why they were wiped out, since other Breeds would covet Cairns and this would lead to their downfall.

          Gaia needs Assassins since sometimes a threat needs to be neutralized stealthily, and the Snakes excel in subtlety. Fomori and Armies of Spiral Dancers? Garou. A single powerful Bastet who has become corrupted by power? Sometimes a Snake will do the job better. And when I call the Snakes "assassins", I do understand that they kill Fera, and "Assassins" is an over-simplification of their role, correct.

          Guides /=/ Teachers. A Guide tells you what to do and pushes you in the right direction. An Apis might teach traditions to a tribe which make them revere animals, and keep them in line with a Gaian lifestyle. They might teach them to accept travellers and feed them, making things easier for Homid Kinfolk, and they might teach them to leave offerings to animals (for non-Homids).

          The Nuwisha, on the other hand, would be teaching Fera Gifts and Abilities specifically. Their role would be that of a Mentor to any Fera they thought was worth their time. How does this differ from the Gurahl? They'd be spiritual advisers and sources of inspiration, and they aren't teaching Gifts to outsiders except in exceptional circumstances since teaching isn't their role.

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          • #50
            Breed: Were-Squirrels
            Job: Gather lost relics and return the spirits of lost fetishes back to natural state.
            Vulnerability: Little People Homid Form / War-form normal short size / Animal form of a squirrel (Reduced health levels -0 -1 -2 -4 Incap )
            Special Abilities: Gifts towards theft and escape. Gifts that allow bypass barriers.Gifts on locating items with spirits. Rites on undoing fetishes.

            These people are unlike any other of Gaia's children. She chose them for the small size which allow them to move unseen. They live nearly always in the Preumbra instead of the normal world. As a people they don't relate to the humans of the world but those creatures of the Umbra. Since their birth they have been quite and moving from place to place but since the recent time they have been charge with bring back those spirits who have been made into fetishes that have been forgotten.
            Last edited by Rahod; 03-15-2017, 02:10 PM.


            Like the Sun I am relentless even in death...

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            • #51
              Originally posted by Rahod View Post
              Breed: Were-Squirrels
              Job: Gather lost relics and return the spirits of lost fetishes back to natural state.
              Vulnerability: Little People Homid Form / War-form normal short size / Animal form of a squirrel (Reduced health levels -0 -1 -2 -4 Incap )
              Special Abilities: Gifts towards theft and escape. Gifts that allow bypass barriers.Gifts on locating items with spirits. Rites on undoing fetishes.

              These people are unlike any other of Gaia's children. She chose them for the small size which allow them to move unseen. They live nearly always in the Preumbra instead of the normal world. As a people they don't relate to the humans of the world but those creatures of the Umbra. Since their birth they have been quite and moving from place to place but since the recent time they have been charge with bring back those spirits who have been made into fetishes that have been forgotten.
              I think this is an interesting concept. It's a unique role that doesn't really have any crossover with established Fera. I don't know that it is entirely necessary, but that isn't so much the point of this thread.

              The animal form reduced health levels thing is a bit out of place since that isn't generally how animal forms work. That is better represented by taking a hit to Stamina (thus soaking less), but even that I wouldn't do since neither Ratkin or Corax suffer that in their small animal forms (and Ratkin actually get a bonus). I always chalked it up to the animals forms being somewhat supernaturally resilient.

              I would assume they have some sort of Breed immunity from suffering Disconnection. Are you picturing them with a Silver vulnerability or gold (and why)?


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              • #52
                I see your point on the health factor, Yes they do not have to worry about Disconnection, and on the point of gold over silver I just thought they would be aligned with sun more than the moon since the breed it self is not very nocturnal. But if you wanted more story line behind it i would say they believe that Helios guides them by shining the light on that which has been lost while Luna hide them in the shadows of the night. You could even give them a form of ADD/ADHD.

                http://orig06.deviantart.net/be80/f/...arknatasha.jpg
                Last edited by Rahod; 03-15-2017, 07:12 PM.


                Like the Sun I am relentless even in death...

                Comment


                • #53
                  Originally posted by idpersona View Post
                  I think this is an interesting concept. It's a unique role that doesn't really have any crossover with established Fera. I don't know that it is entirely necessary, but that isn't so much the point of this thread.
                  It could be necessary if it were written in a way that made it necessary... squirrels IRL forget where they buried stuff all the time (or they are eaten before they can come back to their cache). Maybe were-squirrels originally were the safekeepers of fetishes large and small, hiding them away for safekeeping and then allowing them to be found only by those who were truly worthy.

                  Then something goes wrong.

                  Maybe the squirrels get complacent, or maybe when they refuse a Garou warlord things go south. Maybe the Bastet, charged as they are with watching over the umbral places, think they would make better keepers of the spirit-infused items. Regardless, during the War of Rage a bunch of squirrel-folk were slaughtered but they took their secrets to their graves and their many hiding places were lost to the ages. Now the descendants of the squirrel fera scour the Tellurian for the locations of these lost dormant fetishes. Assuming they succeed, will they give them to the fera who wronged them in ages past... or use these terrible weapons themselves to seek revenge?

                  p.s. I like the idea of killer squirrels.

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    I would think that Were-Squirrels would be something like Grace out of El Goonish Shive, though that would probably make them capable of taking out groups of experienced Garou without breaking a sweat.

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      Are the Weresquirrels anything like these fellas?
                      Chip is SO Awesome with that Indian Jones Hat!


                      And a recommended Name for the Were-Squirrels?
                      The Aeschyli (Literally Latin For Squirrel) or Song-Shu for the Taiwanese Sub-Breed.
                      Keep Up The Good Work!
                      Last edited by Lin Liren; 03-16-2017, 01:00 AM.

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        Originally posted by Lin Liren View Post
                        Are the Weresquirrels anything like these fellas?
                        Chip is SO Awesome with that Indian Jones Hat!

                        And a recommended Name for the Were-Squirrels?
                        The Aeschyli (Literally Latin For Squirrel) or Song-Shu for the Taiwanese Sub-Breed.
                        Keep Up The Good Work!
                        Damn, I loved Chip so much when I was younger. Never really watched the show, just had an action figure I loved to death for some reason. I almost mentioned Indy in my earlier post, I think there could be parallels made between the adventures of the courageous squirrels and everybody's favorite Nazi-punching prof.

                        I think the Aeschyli name sounds awesome.

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          Originally posted by Rahod View Post
                          I see your point on the health factor, Yes they do not have to worry about Disconnection, and on the point of gold over silver I just thought they would be aligned with sun more than the moon since the breed it self is not very nocturnal. But if you wanted more story line behind it i would say they believe that Helios guides them by shining the light on that which has been lost while Luna hide them in the shadows of the night. You could even give them a form of ADD/ADHD.

                          http://orig06.deviantart.net/be80/f/...arknatasha.jpg
                          I like the idea of them being associated with Helios.

                          Now trying to figure out what to do with their form stats to differentiate them at least somewhat from the Ratkin stats. I'm thinking maybe taking a dot or 2 from Stamina and adding it to Perception since the Aeschyli (I also like this name) will be tasked with finding things. There is also the possibility of not hitting their social traits so hard in Crinos/animal forms.

                          So maybe something like:
                          Crinos: Str+1/Dex+4/Stam+1, Man -1, Per+2
                          Note: Keeps Appearance score (like Kitsune)
                          Squirrel: Str-1/Dex+3/Stam+0, Man -1, Per+3

                          And like Ratatosk, the clever squirrel totem (Get book), they only enter Fox Frenzy.
                          Starting Rage/Gnosis/Will:
                          Homid - 1/2/4
                          Animal - 1/5/3
                          Last edited by idpersona; 03-16-2017, 03:20 PM.


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                          • #58
                            Originally posted by idpersona View Post
                            I like the idea of them being associated with Helios.
                            In your face, Luna!

                            Now trying to figure out what to do with their form stats to differentiate them at least somewhat from the Ratkin stats. I'm thinking maybe taking a dot or 2 from Stamina and adding it to Perception since the Aeschyli (I also like this name) will be tasked with finding things. There is also the possibility of not hitting their social traits so hard in Crinos/animal forms.

                            So maybe something like:
                            Crinos: Str+1/Dex+4/Stam+1, Man -1, Per+2
                            Note: Keeps Appearance score (like Kitsune)
                            That just makes me think of Makoto even more. Maybe go back to the frightening-ass squirrel beast posted up-thread?

                            Comment


                            • #59
                              Originally posted by Saur Ops Specialist View Post
                              Haha! I've never heard of this game and so had no idea what to expect when I clicked this link. That's too funny.

                              Originally posted by Saur Ops Specialist View Post
                              That just makes me think of Makoto even more. Maybe go back to the frightening-ass squirrel beast posted up-thread?
                              Honestly, I just couldn't really justify more physical dots and the lack of an App 0 helps to balance it a bit. I could see her form as a partial change thing or as a separate form Gift. Doesn't matter much since I don't think any of us are taking this terribly seriously.


                              Comment


                              • #60
                                So to sum up so far, we have:
                                Koalas: Imagination of Gaia
                                River Dolphins: Joy of Gaia
                                Horses: Gaia's Celestial Heralds
                                Falcons: Helios' Warriors
                                Squirrels: Finders of the Lost

                                I still want to write up Gorillas, but I'm drawing a blank on what their role should be. It has to be a specialized one that doesn't require them to go around the world. So I'm thinking something like the Nuwisha (Laughter) or the River Dolphins (Joy) or the Koalas (Imagination). Something vague that is important to Gaia's survival but can be hidden away until needed (probably after or during the Apocalypse). And I would say some sort of purpose that the Wyrm/Pentex has perverted to "create" the Yeren (in this scenario, the Yeren are the fallen version of this Fera type).

                                Any ideas?
                                Balancing form stats system-wise will be easy enough and can be done afterwards (I'm short on time atm).



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