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  • #61
    Would these be good examples of what the Crinos forms of the proposed Were-Birds (namely WereRooster and WereBlackSwan) would roughly look like?

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    • #62
      Well with the Pentex mockery breed Yeren I wouldn't go with Gorillas but maybe monkeys and maybe they can be teachers of tools aka Fetish Crafters.


      Like the Sun I am relentless even in death...

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      • #63
        Originally posted by Rahod View Post
        Well with the Pentex mockery breed Yeren I wouldn't go with Gorillas but maybe monkeys and maybe they can be teachers of tools aka Fetish Crafters.
        I actually really like the idea of the Yeren being the bastardization of a long dead Fera breed. It would go a ways towards explaining why the Yeren have been so successful in developing Rank and Gifts (compared to the other Mockery Breeds).


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        • #64
          With Falcons as Sky Warriors, they could learn the Corax's offensive gifts but at 1 level lower; so the level 3 Corax gift with a deadly feather dart would be a level 2 gift for them.

          I think it would make sense if they could Swoop Sideways; they can dive into water (reflective) and enter the Umbra through that, in the fashion that birds of prey dive to grab fish.

          However, Corax aren't just Ravens, they're Corvids. Wouldn't it be better to have our 'Falcons' be a larger family which contains multiple birds of prey? That way they are global and allow for more player customisation, like playing as a jaguar or lion or cougar.

          Also, the Vultures are a tribe of the "Falcon" Breed which fell to the Wyrm, much in the way that the Skull Pigs and Spiral Dancers have. They give air support to Hives and they dream of the Wyrm consuming the sun.
          Last edited by 11twiggins; 03-25-2017, 07:08 AM.

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          • #65
            Originally posted by 11twiggins View Post
            With Falcons as Sky Warriors, they could learn the Corax's offensive gifts but at 1 level lower; so the level 3 Corax gift with a deadly feather dart would be a level 2 gift for them.
            Sounds feasible. The only 2 Gifts off the top of my head that fall into this category though would be Hummingbird Dart and Razorfeathers.

            Originally posted by 11twiggins View Post
            I think it would make sense if they could Swoop Sideways; they can dive into water (reflective) and enter the Umbra through that, in the fashion that birds of prey dive to grab fish.
            I don't believe all falcons dive into the water, though requiring them to dive might be a thing. And have a Gift to step sideways normally.

            Originally posted by 11twiggins View Post
            However, Corax aren't just Ravens, they're Corvids. Wouldn't it be better to have our 'Falcons' be a larger family which contains multiple birds of prey? That way they are global and allow for more player customisation, like playing as a jaguar or lion or cougar.
            The Corax are just ravens (in general). The idea of expanding them into other corvids is fine, but all of the books always presented them as being just ravens. The breed and form sections support this (specifically calling them out as not being crows).
            That being said, I do actually like the idea of various raptor changers. You could have falcons, hawks (not sure how much different thematically they would be from falcons), eagles, vultures (possibly fallen, though they'd need an uncorrupted purpose to start). Owls also fit into this category, but not really with the theme of Helios' brood.

            I could see the different types of raptors as being different Tribes (like the Bastet examples you give).
            In that setup, you could have:
            Eagles: Warriors
            Falcons: Royalty/Leaders
            Hawks: ? (most myths I found had falcons and hawks in the same roles)
            Vultures: ?
            Owls (if included): Umbral travelers

            The other raptors I can think of that aren't in the above groups are: the Osprey, Secretarybird and Kites.
            I suppose kites can be lumped in with hawks. If we eliminate Owls from this, we can move their Umbral role over to hawks and/or kites maybe.
            Still not sure where the Osprey and Secretarybird would end up thematically.

            Originally posted by 11twiggins View Post
            Also, the Vultures are a tribe of the "Falcon" Breed which fell to the Wyrm, much in the way that the Skull Pigs and Spiral Dancers have. They give air support to Hives and they dream of the Wyrm consuming the sun.
            Addressed above, but yea this idea makes sense. They just need to have had something to do prior to falling to the Wyrm. Maybe they were in charge of finding the Wyrm to fight? And them falling could have lead to the rest of the Breed getting slaughtered.


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            • #66
              Originally posted by idpersona View Post
              The Corax are just ravens (in general). The idea of expanding them into other corvids is fine, but all of the books always presented them as being just ravens. The breed and form sections support this (specifically calling them out as not being crows).
              For really bad reasons that don't make sense, because all corvids are actually quite bright, and the earlier research on corvid tool use and self-motivated simple tool fabrication comes from New Caledonian crows. Also, in other locations, the breed is explicitly called out as not being ravens, such as in Africa, where they're white-necked crows and likely others. Also, there are no common ravens (Corvus corax) commonly found in Tengu skies. Carrion crows would be more common.
              Last edited by Saur Ops Specialist; 03-25-2017, 12:50 PM.

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              • #67
                Well I'd argue that they should all be Warriors of a kind, just ones who fight in different ways.

                Vultures: They hide and wait for a foe to be weak before striking. They are slow but efficient. A Vulture might bother a Fomori frequently to stop it from getting drinkable water, and slowly as the thirst takes over they take advantage of this weakness. Their Gifts would include an artificially forced Hunger/Thirst/Exhaustion state which they can use to strike a foe at their weakest. Their Crinos form gives extra Stamina to help them Bother foes without risking death or exhaustion. They can't swoop sideways since they lost their connection to the Umbra when they moved away from water. They can step sideways with a gift. Their special ability is gaining power from those they consume, a quirk which led to their sad descent into the Wyrm's clutches.

                Eagles: These are larger birds, so they should be the most aggressive and confrontational Warriors, focusing on Gifts which give a heavy impact and are blunt attackers. Their Crinos gives extra Strength. While they can't keep up with Falcons their claws are crushing in Crinos and will end most lives efficiently. Their special ability is a sense of regality which has led to them becoming the leaders of the breed (along with their size); Leadership rolls are at -1 difficulty.

                Hawks: These are the best hunters. Their senses are unparalleled, and all Sensory rolls are made at an extra -1 difficulty compared to the other breeds. They have a level 1 gift which allows them to roll to pierce any type of invisibility or hiding power, difficulty determined by the level of the power (3 +level of power), where gaining successes equal to or greater than the power's activation breaks the effect.

                Falcons: These are smaller, and they are quick and deadly Warriors, focusing on Gifts which give them extra speed, agility and stealth. They travel the fastest and can pursue anything.

                Owls: Mystics who focus on strategy over raw strength. Their gifts give them a strong sense of how things look on both sides of the Gauntlet, so they make great observers and watchmen. They are very comfortable in the Umbra, cross over easily and fight well on the other side. Special feature is stepping sideways as an innate power.

                Their shared spirit is Bird of Prey, a powerful totem for all cannibalistic birds. They were sent to be the warriors of the sky because the Corax were so frail.

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                • #68
                  Originally posted by Saur Ops Specialist View Post
                  For really bad reasons that don't make sense, because all corvids are actually quite bright, and the earlier research on corvid tool use and self-motivated simple tool fabrication comes from New Caledonian crows. Also, in other locations, the breed is explicitly called out as not being ravens, such as in Africa, where they're white-necked crows and likely others. Also, there are no common ravens (Corvus corax) commonly found in Tengu skies. Carrion crows would be more common.
                  In Africa I was under the impression that they were White-necked ravens, not crows. I had to look it up but white-necked crows seem to only be found in the Caribbean.
                  And for the Tengu, I would assume their Corvids are the Jungle Crow. Their range covers much of eastern Asia.

                  Mind you, I actually do agree it doesn't necessarily make sense to limit them to Ravens, and to expand them to Corvids in general. But that isn't how the books treat them, for better or worse.


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                  • #69
                    Originally posted by 11twiggins View Post
                    Well I'd argue that they should all be Warriors of a kind, just ones who fight in different ways.

                    Vultures: They hide and wait for a foe to be weak before striking. They are slow but efficient. A Vulture might bother a Fomori frequently to stop it from getting drinkable water, and slowly as the thirst takes over they take advantage of this weakness. Their Gifts would include an artificially forced Hunger/Thirst/Exhaustion state which they can use to strike a foe at their weakest. Their Crinos form gives extra Stamina to help them Bother foes without risking death or exhaustion. They can't swoop sideways since they lost their connection to the Umbra when they moved away from water. They can step sideways with a gift. Their special ability is gaining power from those they consume, a quirk which led to their sad descent into the Wyrm's clutches.

                    Eagles: These are larger birds, so they should be the most aggressive and confrontational Warriors, focusing on Gifts which give a heavy impact and are blunt attackers. Their Crinos gives extra Strength. While they can't keep up with Falcons their claws are crushing in Crinos and will end most lives efficiently. Their special ability is a sense of regality which has led to them becoming the leaders of the breed (along with their size); Leadership rolls are at -1 difficulty.

                    Hawks: These are the best hunters. Their senses are unparalleled, and all Sensory rolls are made at an extra -1 difficulty compared to the other breeds. They have a level 1 gift which allows them to roll to pierce any type of invisibility or hiding power, difficulty determined by the level of the power (3 +level of power), where gaining successes equal to or greater than the power's activation breaks the effect.

                    Falcons: These are smaller, and they are quick and deadly Warriors, focusing on Gifts which give them extra speed, agility and stealth. They travel the fastest and can pursue anything.

                    Owls: Mystics who focus on strategy over raw strength. Their gifts give them a strong sense of how things look on both sides of the Gauntlet, so they make great observers and watchmen. They are very comfortable in the Umbra, cross over easily and fight well on the other side. Special feature is stepping sideways as an innate power.

                    Their shared spirit is Bird of Prey, a powerful totem for all cannibalistic birds. They were sent to be the warriors of the sky because the Corax were so frail.
                    That all sounds pretty good. I was looking at the roles as being subroles of being Warriors (akin to the Garou Auspices covering general roles while all Garou are Warriors).

                    I think I would drop the Owls and just focus on the diurnal raptors since we are starting with the premise (I am anyways) of these being Helios' Warriors. If you just want to go with "Sky Warriors" then that works fine.
                    And within the WoD, Falcon is already known as a Totem of Leadership so I would err on the side of falcons (not eagles) being the born leaders among the raptors.

                    I think our slightly different approaches are a result of my trying to tie it into the WoD as written already while you are rewriting the Fera as written. Not a big difference in the end, but it informs the result because of the different foundations we're starting with.


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                    • #70
                      Originally posted by idpersona View Post
                      That all sounds pretty good. I was looking at the roles as being subroles of being Warriors (akin to the Garou Auspices covering general roles while all Garou are Warriors).

                      I think I would drop the Owls and just focus on the diurnal raptors since we are starting with the premise (I am anyways) of these being Helios' Warriors. If you just want to go with "Sky Warriors" then that works fine.
                      And within the WoD, Falcon is already known as a Totem of Leadership so I would err on the side of falcons (not eagles) being the born leaders among the raptors.

                      I think our slightly different approaches are a result of my trying to tie it into the WoD as written already while you are rewriting the Fera as written. Not a big difference in the end, but it informs the result because of the different foundations we're starting with.
                      My reasoning was that the guide of birds of prey I read described Eagles as regal, if there's established lore on Falcons as leaders... the issue for me is that Eagles are bigger and this means that they fit neatly as the leaders in a stereotypical sense.

                      I'm not sure if Owl would actually work. Might just be goofy. Since Hawks have such incredible senses, they could be the Umbra experts. Or, Luna wanted to get in on the fun and she made the Owl sub-breed, and there's a rivalry going on because Helios was big on the whole "The birbs are mine" thing. The Owls gained no support from the Corax and the other Birds during the War of Rage, and they were all but destroyed. The few survivors slumber in the Umbra, and seek the power to get revenge on their persecutors.

                      When I get round to STing WTA, I'm going to completely redo the Fera's roles, remove a few breeds and change the Gift lists extensively. Corax just have so few gifts. I can't imagine playing one in a high EXP game, the list in the Changing Breeds book feels so bloody short and it feels incomplete... that sort of thing.
                      Last edited by 11twiggins; 03-25-2017, 02:28 PM.

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                      • #71
                        Originally posted by 11twiggins View Post
                        When I get round to STing WTA, I'm going to completely redo the Fera's roles, remove a few breeds and change the Gift lists extensively. Corax just have so few gifts. I can't imagine playing one in a high EXP game, the list in the Changing Breeds book feels so bloody short and it feels incomplete... that sort of thing.
                        The Breed book doesn't do much to add to the list either. I think a lot of the problem is that Garou (being the main characters) get lots of support and so had a lot of Gifts added. The Fera generally seem to have a much smaller pool comparatively. The Cox and Nuwisha I think suffer the worst from this. I just look around the various books (Tribe books and Book of Auspices in particular) and let them have access to anything I feel is appropriate.


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                        • #72
                          Originally posted by idpersona View Post
                          The Breed book doesn't do much to add to the list either. I think a lot of the problem is that Garou (being the main characters) get lots of support and so had a lot of Gifts added. The Fera generally seem to have a much smaller pool comparatively. The Cox and Nuwisha I think suffer the worst from this. I just look around the various books (Tribe books and Book of Auspices in particular) and let them have access to anything I feel is appropriate.
                          Yeah, I can't see a Squirrel Spirit being overly discerning. "Wait! You aren't a member of this Arbitrary Group! No, I won't teach you how to do this thing that is kind of common to all animals in folklore, so there!"

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                          • #73
                            Originally posted by No One of Consequence View Post
                            I seem to recall way back when that Ethan Skemp said that the biggest problem with were-dolphins is that the species is rather sexually aggressive and this brought up a whole host of issues he didn't want to ever have to deal with. That said, the above idea is pretty cool.

                            I, personally, want were-snails. Gaia's original messengers, until their failure to stop the first war of rage led to the job going to the Corax.

                            (In all seriousness, as much as I enjoy all of the existing breeds, I would've preferred only having wolves, tigers, leopards, jaguars, hyena and sharks.)
                            Read the fantasy series Shadows of the Apt by Adrian Tchaikovsky. It has slug-people in it, and they are basically walking gods.

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                            • #74
                              I think a were-porcupine would be pretty awesome, but I have no idea what their role would be.

                              Slight off track, if Ananasi are Weaver creations, were-beavers could be Wyld creations. I know, you're probably thinking, beavers are builders and would be a Weaver creation. However, it's the beaver's dams that cause flooding, allowing trees and other life to flourish and add to a wild ecology.

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                              • #75
                                Oh, and a Were-Moose sounds quite epic as well (just picture that crinos form). Again, no idea what their role would be.

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