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  • Kidnapping Corax

    OK, so my PC wants to kindapp Corax and use him in his magical ritual. He's pretty powerful Sorcerer in VtM game and needs something connected to Helios. Unfortunately, I have no idea how to find and capture wereraven without being killed by it or allies of it. Any ideas, advices, WARNINGS?

  • #2
    I guess it depends on how easy/hard you want this to be. Is it going to be a small sidetrack, or a major plot point? If you only need a small focal point of Helios-related matter, a shed Mokole skin or eggshells from a Corax hatching rite might work. If you want this to be something more substantial or dangerous, perhaps finding Wyrm-serving fera would be good. They might help if it involved taking their enemies down a peg, and fallen Corax are a thing. Maybe one of these buzzards is willing to help stage a trap for another of its kind (or maybe your PC might double cross the creature... beggars can't be choosers!).

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    • #3




      Seriously though, I would go with The Laughing Stranger's advice. Finding and capturing a Corax isn't going to be a small footnote. They're terribly good at getting away from danger. It is going to make more sense to go for something discarded or forgotten than actually trying to catch one of Sun's children.

      So are you a human Sorcerer or a Vampire Blood Magician (this wasn't terribly clear)?


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      • #4
        What is one of the major dangers with kidnapping a Corax? The Corax can summon a Celestine Avatar of Helios and burn the Kindred (and everyone associated with him) to ash within a millisecond. If the Kindred start kidnapping Corax, then local Garou are going to be receiving detailed packets of the properties and schedules of the local Kindred from the remaining Corax in the neighborhood. Corax are too valuable and too difficult to replace for the Corax to tolerate anyone hunting their members.

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        • #5
          I fully agree.

          also if hes a triemere blood magician, I wouldn't put it past the corax to send the gangrel, or even tzimnic packets of info too.


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          • #6
            I'm playing Sorcerer who got himself ghouled 50 years ago (terribly long game). By using money and influence of his domitor he manged to archive Occult 5 and Enchanting 6, Summoning 5. I'm currently working on... well Sun Bomb and Fera with spiritual connection to the sun is main component of it. Ritually killed by exsanguination Fera.

            OK. So here is my plan:

            1. Summon Middle Umbra spirit and bind it.
            2. Order it to somehow lure Corax into already prepared place. Rare and expansive ring might be enough to attract it's attention.
            3. Place the ring inside Warding Circle that let's wereraven enter but not leave.
            4. Enchant the ring to deal damage, shock, stun, paralyze or whatever when touched.
            5. Shoot it with golden bullets few times.

            Do you know how can I keep Corax "stable" until I kill it?

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            • #7
              More important than your plan (which has quite a few holes), what does your character know about Corax in game? His lack of knowledge is likely to get him killed.
              And what does your ST know about them, and how invested is your ST in you succeeding?


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              • #8
                Alright, I see a few problems with your plan. First, you would have to summon a type of spirit that a Corax would trust, which would mean a Raven spirit or a spirit of Helios, and neither of them are going to help you betray a Corax. Second, even if you bind them, they can spend a point of Willpower to unravel your binding, so you are talking about a very long and a very hard binding process. Third, warding circles do not work that way in either type of Sorcery, you cannot make them into roach motels, so you have to create the warding circle after you incapacitate the Corax. Fourth, it is impossible to shoot gold bullets at anything because they do not exist (you can try to make your own gold bullets, but they are horribly expensive and horribly ineffective against anything but Corax and Mokoe).

                So, you will need a few different rituals (as well as finding the formula for your ring). You will need Summon Raven Spirit, Bind Raven Spirit, and Ward Against Raven Spirit. You will also need Ward Against Corax. Honestly, it would be simpler just to learn Summon Corax, Bind Corax, and Ward Against Corax, though you would have to spend fifteen XP for the three rituals instead of the eleven XP for the four rituals. I honestly have no idea of why it would be worth that much XP to capture and kill a Corax. In addition, you would need Corax Lore 5 (a very hard knowledge to develop) to know enough about Corax to make the appropriate rituals.

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                • #9
                  ST stated that he is going to do some online reasech and create Corax NPC using Vampire system (No Gifts, only Disciplines working at least similar). So wereraven is going to be something similar to Lupines presented on Vampire books.

                  My PC is summoning spirits and binding them to give him some info about Fera and Corax whenever he is not occupied with main plot. And I am actually considering meeting with BSD to see if they could help me with all this.

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Aya Tari View Post
                    What is one of the major dangers with kidnapping a Corax? The Corax can summon a Celestine Avatar of Helios and burn the Kindred (and everyone associated with him) to ash within a millisecond. If the Kindred start kidnapping Corax, then local Garou are going to be receiving detailed packets of the properties and schedules of the local Kindred from the remaining Corax in the neighborhood. Corax are too valuable and too difficult to replace for the Corax to tolerate anyone hunting their members.
                    As a storyteller, couldn't you just have the target Corax be a young one and not know any summoning rites?

                    At any rate, having a deity show up to burninate your foes should never be treated as a normal, expected response to a low-level threat, and there is a lot wrong about assuming this would happen. First off, it is a rite. You can't do rites instantly. If you are in the processes of being kidnapped, you will likely not have a chance to call forth the Unconquered Sun. Even if the Corax is somehow unrestrained/unobserved and capable of attempting the summoning rite, it is hardly a done deal. Even if the being was successfully summoned, it needs to be bargained with. A point of Gnosis or two ain't gonna cut it. I can't imagine Lord Helios is going to be particularly magnanimous under any circumstances.

                    Spirits are powerful, but most fera are expected to fight their own battles, not be saved via deus ex machina sun gods. What you are proposing is akin no one messing with the Tzimisce ever because there is a chance the Eldest might get pissed off, manifest through their grandchilde's body and devour you. I mean, it theoretically could happen, but that kind of destruction is never portrayed as happening regularly, and if it actually occurs in a game it wouldn't be cool or awe-inspiring, it would be out of nowhere and silly.

                    If a Mokole wallow was under siege by a horde of leeches or if a low generation horror awoke and started consuming everyone, yeah, maybe Helios could be arsed to wade in and kill the damned vampires. Joe Crow-Feathers getting grabbed off the street by a vampire? Let it ride.

                    Originally posted by Erty90
                    ST stated that he is going to do some online reasech and create Corax NPC using Vampire system (No Gifts, only Disciplines working at least similar). So wereraven is going to be something similar to Lupines presented on Vampire books.

                    My PC is summoning spirits and binding them to give him some info about Fera and Corax whenever he is not occupied with main plot. And I am actually considering meeting with BSD to see if they could help me with all this.
                    Interesting. In that case, the thing might be capable of clawing your vamp's face off, but if you are careful you should be able to avoid that. Are you still sure you have to take one alive? That is always harder than using the slain creature's thighbones in your ritual. I still maintain that getting the spirits to tell you where you could find a fallen Corax/Garou is a good bet. If the spirits are Gaian they will likely be more amenable to selling out a Wyrm-slave than one of their own.

                    Depending on how things go, the Wyrmish creatures might be useful allies... or components for your blood magic. Either way, you win.

                    Unless things go badly, then you end up as ash. But hey, that is what diplomacy is for.
                    Last edited by The Laughing Stranger; 03-14-2017, 02:10 PM.

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Aya Tari View Post
                      So, you will need a few different rituals (as well as finding the formula for your ring). You will need Summon Raven Spirit, Bind Raven Spirit, and Ward Against Raven Spirit. You will also need Ward Against Corax. Honestly, it would be simpler just to learn Summon Corax, Bind Corax, and Ward Against Corax, though you would have to spend fifteen XP for the three rituals instead of the eleven XP for the four rituals. I honestly have no idea of why it would be worth that much XP to capture and kill a Corax. In addition, you would need Corax Lore 5 (a very hard knowledge to develop) to know enough about Corax to make the appropriate rituals.
                      We are using house ruled version of Sorcerer. No Rituals, just Paths.

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                      • #12
                        It is a level two Rite and the difficulty drops by one for every hour spent performing it (to a minimum of 3). There really is no such thing a 'Joe Crow-Feathers' because it costs three permanent Gnosis to create a new Corax, so every Corax is valuable to the Corax (infinitely more valuable than any individual Tzimisce is to their 'officially dead' Antediluvian). If one of Raven's children goes missing, the Corax will come asking questions and, when they find the culprit, they will make sure that the action is never repeated.

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Aya Tari View Post
                          It is a level two Rite and the difficulty drops by one for every hour spent performing it (to a minimum of 3). There really is no such thing a 'Joe Crow-Feathers' because it costs three permanent Gnosis to create a new Corax, so every Corax is valuable to the Corax (infinitely more valuable than any individual Tzimisce is to their 'officially dead' Antediluvian). If one of Raven's children goes missing, the Corax will come asking questions and, when they find the culprit, they will make sure that the action is never repeated.
                          I think if the standard response to being threatened is 'summon Helios' the books would have remarked on it. Dissuading supernatural attackers is fine, but that does not guarantee summoning Incarna Avatars(?!) as you seem to think it does. A single kidnapping does not merit going nuclear.

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                          • #14
                            It is not only the kidnapping, it is also the fact that someone is using Corax for raw materials. It is not like they will only need one Corax and will then stop using them for raw materials. Corax are just too valuable to allow anyone to get away with using them as raw materials and, given the cost of creating new Corax, going nuclear is a rational option (every Corax who dies before creating a Spirit Egg is likely a permanent reduction to the population of the Corax, since creating a Spirit Egg costs three permanent Gnosis). The summoning of Celestine Avatar is common enough that there is an established Renown reward (two points of temporary Wisdom as long as it is not done frivolously) and Corax are going to be much more likely to use spirits as their muscle than Garou.

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                            • #15
                              I hate doing these broken up point-bulletin responses, but I can't let sleeping dogs lie.

                              Originally posted by Aya Tari View Post
                              It is not only the kidnapping, it is also the fact that someone is using Corax for raw materials. It is not like they will only need one Corax and will then stop using them for raw materials. .
                              OP has said nothing to indicate he wants to kidnap multiple Corax. This is pure conjecture on your part, and it would also be conjecture in-character for any other Corax to assume this.
                              Originally posted by Aya Tari View Post
                              Corax are just too valuable to allow anyone to get away with using them as raw materials and, given the cost of creating new Corax, going nuclear is a rational option (every Corax who dies before creating a Spirit Egg is likely a permanent reduction to the population of the Corax, since creating a Spirit Egg costs three permanent Gnosis).
                              Gnosis can be bought with experience. It is costly to hatch more Corax, but not as difficult as you make it out to be.
                              Originally posted by Aya Tari View Post
                              The summoning of Celestine Avatar is common enough that there is an established Renown reward (two points of temporary Wisdom as long as it is not done frivolously) and Corax are going to be much more likely to use spirits as their muscle than Garou.
                              It isn't common at all. It is specifically listed as rewarding because it happens rarely, and when it does happen it is A Big Deal. Issues that you have to approach the Incarna with had better be catastrophes.

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