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  • #16
    Originally posted by Aleph View Post
    Also, Rank is not really commensurable with Spheres nor with Arete (and the latter aren't commensurable either). Rank seems somewhat akin to a social background, hanvig Rank 6 it's being a legend among spirits and Garou alike. Correct me if I'm wrong, but Rank doesn't represent magical power. Gifts represent this.
    Indeed Arete can be said to directly affect what a Mage can do. However, isn't it the same with Rank in practice? After all, a Fera who has reached Rank 5 or more has earned enough Renown that she or he is effectively an extremely powerful, influential, subtle, skilled etc. person. Reaching a high Rank cements these qualities, and can very much add further ones. Rank is more than Gifts - it means access to Fetishes (not only ease of access - a high Rank Fera can also make new Fetishes, direct others in making new Fetishes, invent new Fetishes) and - through closer link with Totems or Incarnae, for instance - ability to go beyond mortal limits of intelligence, battle skills or manipulation abilities.

    Originally posted by Aleph View Post
    If Rank 7 Gifts existed, a Rank 1 werewolf could learn them if the spirits want to teach her (the spirits ain't going to want, but that's besides the point, the point it's that the "power scaling" doesn't work like Vampire or Mage)
    I don't think a Rank 1 could understand Rank 7 Gifts. Rank 2-3 Gifts, perhaps.

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    • #17
      Saur Ops Specialist and The Laughing Stranger already added some of the follow up comments, but I figured I'd add my thoughts in addition.
      Originally posted by Aleph View Post
      Rank seems somewhat akin to a social background, hanvig Rank 6 it's being a legend among spirits and Garou alike.
      It is and it isn't (helpful I know). It is majorly a social aspect, but there are other parts to it. It does have to do with scaling mystical might, in the form of access to (arguably) more powerful Gifts (yes I know Gift scaling doesn't work exactly like that, with affinities being taken into account).
      But on top of that, higher Rank also comes with a reduced chance to Frenzy. Under normal circumstances the higher Rank Garou will generally just won't (higher dif and more successes needed).

      Originally posted by Aleph View Post
      Correct me if I'm wrong, but Rank doesn't represent magical power. Gifts represent this. If Rank 7 Gifts existed, a Rank 1 werewolf could learn them if the spirits want to teach her (the spirits ain't going to want, but that's besides the point, the point it's that the "power scaling" doesn't work like Vampire or Mage)
      This is sort of correct. The books make a point of saying that Gift access is restricted by Rank (in the hard rules section). But then they have specific exceptions (Rank 1 Gifts) that sometimes, depending on the section you're reading don't actually require Rank 1. In general though I would say this understanding is false. A Cliath (Rank 1) shouldn't be allowed (by RAW) to learn Rank 4 or 5 Gifts. This can be further complicated by the earlier mentioned affinities to Gifts or spirits when taking into account other Fera (since some Garou Gifts are learned at different Rank levels for them).

      Originally posted by Aleph View Post
      This does not mean that you can't make Rank above 6. But rather than "power-level", I think that it's about the kind of EPIC deeds that are expected of such a legend
      ...I'm not against a Book of Legends, but "Archwerewolves" deeds and stats would have to be trully larger than life to satisfy me, not like Masters of the Art and it's infamous Archmasters with 12 levels in Spheres, and 10 in Backgrounds (twice a starting character, basically).
      That's the thing though. That sort of perspective is already in place for Rank 6. Rank 5 is the "normal" highest Rank you can get to. Rank 6 is literally reserved for those Garou who go above and beyond that and perform truly epic deeds.

      There are less Rank 6 Garou than there are Tribes at any given point. They are exceedingly rare. So I don't see the logical reason to want there to be a Rank 7. As is, over 99% of Garou die before they ever have the chance of attaining Rank 6. And those that do go beyond Rank 6 power level have moved into the Realm of demi-god (Incarna) status.

      Originally posted by Muad'Dib View Post
      Indeed Arete can be said to directly affect what a Mage can do. However, isn't it the same with Rank in practice? After all, a Fera who has reached Rank 5 or more has earned enough Renown that she or he is effectively an extremely powerful, influential, subtle, skilled etc. person. Reaching a high Rank cements these qualities, and can very much add further ones. .
      So this might be a nitpick, but I would disagree in the way this is stated. Rank 5 characters are the Rank they are because they have those qualities, not the other way around.

      Originally posted by Muad'Dib View Post
      Rank is more than Gifts - it means access to Fetishes (not only ease of access - a high Rank Fera can also make new Fetishes, direct others in making new Fetishes, invent new Fetishes)
      I agree completely that Rank is more than just having Gifts. But on the Fetish front, technically speaking any Rank character can craft Fetishes. But higher Rank fetishes usually require rare materials and/or powerful Spirits. Higher Rank character though have generally had the time to build up stronger relationships with the spirits and that in turn makes crafting more powerful fetishes easier. This is mostly just opinion though and how I run things. Hammer and Klaive would have more information on the subject, but from memory I don't remember if they put a solid system in place for how to go about it.

      Originally posted by Muad'Dib View Post
      through closer link with Totems or Incarnae, for instance - ability to go beyond mortal limits of intelligence, battle skills or manipulation abilities.
      How so? Even Cliath's can go beyond mortal limits (or 5) with the help of a Totem's benefits. This isn't something reserved for higher Rank characters.

      Originally posted by Muad'Dib View Post
      I don't think a Rank 1 could understand Rank 7 Gifts. Rank 2-3 Gifts, perhaps.
      This is arguable, but I err on the side of not allowing anyone to learn Gifts higher than their Rank. Ever. I see no reason for it. And even knowing that there are exceptions to the rule is generally only because I've seen it in the books. I don't think it would occur to anyone in-Setting that it was a possibility.
      Even when a Totem grants access to a higher Rank Gift (Helios comes to mind), it isn't because the Garou have learned it by any means.


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      • #18
        Originally posted by Muad'Dib View Post
        I don't think a Rank 1 could understand Rank 7 Gifts. Rank 2-3 Gifts, perhaps.
        Duh. Rank 7 Gifts don't exist, so they'd be difficult to understand. (^VVVVVVV^)

        As for Rank 6 Gifts, they're taught by actual, higher-ranking spirits, who help to keep up the pact between changers and spirits. They aren't going to be easy to fool or convince to go against their own ways. It can be done, but the amount of effort required would likely get you to that rank, anyway.

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