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  • Spirit Noob Questions

    So I have been running a story and I am trying to figure something out.

    So I know there are wyrm tainted spirits normally called Banes and there are some old Wyrm which are not the same. But I am having a hard time trying to figure out the differences between the two. Does old wyrm spirits come up as tainted like banes? and how do they social interact with Banes?

    Now if i am wrong on the division of the two please let me know and why.

    Thank You


    Like the Sun I am relentless even in death...

  • #2
    Are you talking about wyrm corrupted spirits? There's a distinction between normal Gaian spirits that have been corrupted by the Wyrm, and Banes.

    Banes are generally intrinsically evil spirits in service to evil doing evil things. Murder spirits (Scrags) are Banes. As would be Disease spirits and the like.

    Wyrm corrupted spirits are spirits that normally have a Gaian orientation, but were diverted from their original purpose because of Wyrm corruption. Bat, for example, is not a Bane. But in earlier editions, he definitely served the Wyrm as he had been corrupted.

    Both detect as Wyrm tainted. But one fulfills its purpose by its service to the Wyrm, but the other' has been corrupted.

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    • #3
      I think the question is more the distinction between spirits born of the Wyrm as it exists now, and spirits born of the Wyrm before it was corrupted, when it served its natural role as cosmic destroyer faithfully.

      I'm not necessarily sure any of the latter still exist in the world outside of distant historical settings, though. Are there any rare oddities out there like that?

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      • #4
        Yes those spirits that served the Wyrm before corruption and those evil spirits we know as banes like the Scrags.


        Like the Sun I am relentless even in death...

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Stupid Loserman View Post
          I think the question is more the distinction between spirits born of the Wyrm as it exists now, and spirits born of the Wyrm before it was corrupted, when it served its natural role as cosmic destroyer faithfully.

          I'm not necessarily sure any of the latter still exist in the world outside of distant historical settings, though. Are there any rare oddities out there like that?

          Correct right on the money!!!!


          Like the Sun I am relentless even in death...

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Rahod View Post
            Yes those spirits that served the Wyrm before corruption and those evil spirits we know as banes like the Scrags.
            That's the sort of thing that you'd need to go on a lengthy, extremely dangerous quest to find. The Great Serpent of Pangaea is the only noted one in most, if not all, of canon.

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            • #7
              Originally posted by Saur Ops Specialist View Post
              That's the sort of thing that you'd need to go on a lengthy, extremely dangerous quest to find. The Great Serpent of Pangaea is the only noted one in most, if not all, of canon.
              This.

              There are some spirits that remained true to their nature after the fall of the Wyrm, but they are few and far between. It is possible but is generally extremely rare. Iit would have required extreme power and special circumstances (i.e. plot reasons) for said Spirit(s) to have remained uncorrupted. Besides the Dragon of Pangaea, I believe the Wani (who the Nagah serve) are also from a similar origin. Not entirely sure though as I'm away from my books. I'm sure Saur Ops Specialist will correct me if I'm wrong in how I'm remembering them.


              edit: oh and said Spirits may or may not show up to Sense Wyrm, depending on the ST and how they view how the Gift works. I usually rule that they show up and that the Gift just detects Wyrm in general and that (especially in the modern nights) said Wyrm smell is synonymous with corruption. It is just as fair though to rule that Sense Wyrm detects corruption itself and so "pure" Wyrm spirits don't show up to it. Whatever works for you/your game.
              Last edited by idpersona; 04-12-2017, 09:38 PM.


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              • #8
                Originally posted by idpersona View Post
                This.

                There are some spirits that remained true to their nature after the fall of the Wyrm, but they are few and far between. It is possible but is generally extremely rare. Iit would have required extreme power and special circumstances (i.e. plot reasons) for said Spirit(s) to have remained uncorrupted. Besides the Dragon of Pangaea, I believe the Wani (who the Nagah serve) are also from a similar origin. Not entirely sure though as I'm away from my books. I'm sure Saur Ops Specialist will correct me if I'm wrong in how I'm remembering them.
                It would be highly optional for the Wani to number among them.

                edit: oh and said Spirits may or may not show up to Sense Wyrm, depending on the ST and how they view how the Gift works. I usually rule that they show up and that the Gift just detects Wyrm in general and that (especially in the modern nights) said Wyrm smell is synonymous with corruption. It is just as fair though to rule that Sense Wyrm detects corruption itself and so "pure" Wyrm spirits don't show up to it. Whatever works for you/your game.
                Really, it's because Garou don't have what the Bastet would term "Sense Cahlash" and "Sense Asura", with the latter being the force responsible for banes and the former being the Wyrm... or that might not matter, since all pieces of the conflicted force are at war with each other, and one is no more true at this point than the other.

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                • #9
                  Both Uktena and Bat were hinted to be servants of the Wyrm, back before the Destroyer was ensnared and driven insane by the Weaver. I think those original spirits that used to serve the Wyrm have jumped ship in favor of other patrons (Uktena, for example, serves Gaia now), or they have long since been corrupted. The aforementioned Great Serpent, rumored to be an Avatar of the Balance Wyrm, may be one of a kind: a spirit of the primordial Wyrm that has not been forced to change or adapt since the Triat was unbalanced.

                  If there are other examples of such creatures in the books, I can't remember them.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    What I've gone with in the past is that for a Garou (or other Shapeshifter) to detect which aspect of the Wyrm they are dealing with, they need:

                    ​1) The mindset to care. (Stargazers come to mind.)
                    ​2) Wyrm (or appropriate) Lore. (IE, Wraith Lore of a Strider would allow them to detect the difference between Corruption and Oblivion.)
                    3) Multiple Success on Sense Wyrm or Triat. Each success on the roll would add more detail, up to their level of lore. (IE, if they have Wyrm Lore 3, they can count 3 successes toward those details.) Rather than bogging things down with extra rolls, just include this in the original roll.

                    ​----
                    Edit:

                    Before too much more comes after this, I'm going to say this was originally aimed at telling the difference between different aspects that are well known of the existing Triatic Wyrm, and as mentioned for Silent Striders, something Wraith touched. Finding bits of the 'original' Wyrm would is something the Stargazers see as a bit of a 'Holy Grail', and exceedingly rare, if not completely unheard of at this point.

                    While Bastet are sure of it's existence, Book of the Wyrm 20th shows how well that works out for them.
                    Last edited by EvilTyger; 04-13-2017, 08:53 PM.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by EvilTyger View Post
                      What I've gone with in the past is that for a Garou (or other Shapeshifter) to detect which aspect of the Wyrm they are dealing with, they need:

                      ​1) The mindset to care. (Stargazers come to mind.)
                      ​2) Wyrm (or appropriate) Lore. (IE, Wraith Lore of a Strider would allow them to detect the difference between Corruption and Oblivion.)
                      3) Multiple Success on Sense Wyrm or Triat. Each success on the roll would add more detail, up to their level of lore. (IE, if they have Wyrm Lore 3, they can count 3 successes toward those details.) Rather than bogging things down with extra rolls, just include this in the original roll.

                      That seems to work pretty well.

                      #1 is especially important, though I think it's less about caring and more about knowing that there could be a difference (most newer Garou nowadays probably don't realize "pure" Wyrm spirits could exist, which I suppose is where the Lores come in).


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                      • #12
                        The way I've always thought of it is that "Bane" is basically a catchall term for spirits that embrace the Corrupter Wyrm and always have. They're spirits OF corruption, in one form or another.

                        But Banes aren't the only spirits that serve the Wyrm. Bat is the perfect example. Bat's a Wyrm totem, but it's not a spirit of corruption. Before the Triat fell out of balance, Bat was associated with the Destroyer Wyrm, which is/was a healthy and necessary part of Gaia.

                        The difference is like the difference between apoptosis and necrosis. One is healthy cell death that's part of the natural order, the other builds up more and more until it kills the victim. The difference between the infertility of winter and the infertility of a nuclear blast zone.

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by D_Druid View Post
                          The way I've always thought of it is that "Bane" is basically a catchall term for spirits that embrace the Corrupter Wyrm and always have. They're spirits OF corruption, in one form or another.

                          But Banes aren't the only spirits that serve the Wyrm. Bat is the perfect example. Bat's a Wyrm totem, but it's not a spirit of corruption. Before the Triat fell out of balance, Bat was associated with the Destroyer Wyrm, which is/was a healthy and necessary part of Gaia.

                          The difference is like the difference between apoptosis and necrosis. One is healthy cell death that's part of the natural order, the other builds up more and more until it kills the victim. The difference between the infertility of winter and the infertility of a nuclear blast zone.
                          From the point of view of target cells, perhaps. Apoptosis still isn't an unnatural thing, and necrosis can still kill you.

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Saur Ops Specialist View Post

                            From the point of view of target cells, perhaps. Apoptosis still isn't an unnatural thing, and necrosis can still kill you.

                            I never said apoptosis was unnatural, nor that necrosis couldn't kill. The point is that one's a natural part of cell division, whereas the other only happens when something has gone wrong.

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