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Spirits and Koldun Sorcery

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  • Spirits and Koldun Sorcery

    More often than not spirits really don't like vampires, well maybe banes are more prone to discuss, but other spirits are often portrayed with a general bias against the childrens of Caine.

    Usually when a vampire mage wants to manipulate a spirit he use Way of the Spirit Manipulation, which force the spirits to bend to the caster's will, so it's pretty natural that a spirits, bound against its will by Thaumaturgy will not have much love for his master.

    On the other way, Kolduns don't binds spirits, but usually bargains with them, and the whole point of Koldun sorcery was to create a magic school more akin to shamanism, with a great respect for the spirits of the lands.

    Would a spirit be at odds even with a Koldun?

  • #2
    Banes wouldn't. Furthermore, some non-Wyrm spirits are very dark---Grandfather Thunder, I'm looking at you!---and they might be willing to led a Koldun their aid every now and again.

    But yeah, it's mostly going to be Banes.

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    • #3
      Originally posted by Demigod Beast View Post
      Banes wouldn't. Furthermore, some non-Wyrm spirits are very dark---Grandfather Thunder, I'm looking at you!---and they might be willing to led a Koldun their aid every now and again.
      If Grandfather Thunder did that, the Shadow Lords wouldn't have been so keen on staying under his banner.

      But yeah, it's mostly going to be Banes.
      Moreover, the list of spirits willing to play ball is going to look like Monty Python's Spam sketch lyrics with the word spam replaced by bane.

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      • #4
        Originally posted by Saur Ops Specialist View Post

        If Grandfather Thunder did that, the Shadow Lords wouldn't have been so keen on staying under his banner.
        This right here. The vampires of the Carpathians and the Shadow Lords are ancient, bitter enemies. I can't imagine Thunder or his sons suffering one of the living dead among them, much less a spirit-enslaving Koldun.

        The 'spirits of the earth' like Kupala that the Tzimisce entreat with are uniformly presented as banes in WtA crossovers... I think it makes a lot of sense that spiritually dead vampires are blind to most of the vibrant, living spirit world. The undead approach to the umbra is inherently imbalanced.

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        • #5
          Originally posted by Demigod Beast View Post
          Banes wouldn't. Furthermore, some non-Wyrm spirits are very dark---Grandfather Thunder, I'm looking at you!---and they might be willing to led a Koldun their aid every now and again.

          But yeah, it's mostly going to be Banes.
          Actually, I can see that. after all Grandfather Thunder has some really roundabout way of doing things (like in the "fall of a tribe" apocalypse scenario), so I can see him/it having relations with some kolduns for some temporary favor, well knowing his children will kill the leech somewhen later...

          but moreover, probably corrupted nature/elemantal spirits (which were probably abundant near the Tzimisce domains)


          ====================================
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          [Unofficial Clanbook] Nagaraja: the Masquerade


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          • #6
            Originally posted by Undead rabbit View Post
            On the other way, Kolduns don't binds spirits, but usually bargains with them, and the whole point of Koldun sorcery was to create a magic school more akin to shamanism, with a great respect for the spirits of the lands.

            Would a spirit be at odds even with a Koldun?
            Just throwing in with the opinion that it really is just going to be Banes. Vampires generally don't know the difference anyways, even ones who know more about the spirit world in general. There isn't going to be a difference, from their perspective, between a Fire Elemental and an oil fire Spirit. And Koldunic Sorcery may very well corrupt non-Bane spirits it interacts with, since its source is Kupala, a giant Bane (in WtA cosmology).


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            • #7
              Will point out, that in an old book I read years ago I think it was book of the high Clans

              it said "Lupines are offended by Kolduns"


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              • #8
                Any spirits that Kolduns deal with will either be considered to be Banes by the Garou, or the more neutral or darker oriented nature spirits being corrupted to various degrees. I can see an argument for some ordinary spirits dealing with Kolduns, but the more they do so they more corrupted they become, and any local Garou would seek to somehow change/redeem them of failing that attempt to destroy them/put them in slumber.

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                • #9
                  I got a strange idea:
                  what if Grandfather Thunder make "barters" with Koldunists, then send them to some spirits of the land he don't like so that the Koldunist will corrupt the spirit. Then the old Thunder give quest to some puppy pack to "purify" the spirit, so they can make some first-hand experience. The spirit is then purified, and the Koldunist will come back to Grandfather Thunder for a new "spirit", thus bartering something else. And the unwelcome spirit will exist in a costant state of corruption/purification, which is probably a hellish existence.


                  ====================================
                  "Worst English-language User" 2011, 2012, 2013, 2014, 2015 running for the 2017
                  [Unofficial Clanbook] Nagaraja: the Masquerade


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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Ryoga84 View Post
                    I got a strange idea:
                    what if Grandfather Thunder make "barters" with Koldunists, then send them to some spirits of the land he don't like so that the Koldunist will corrupt the spirit. Then the old Thunder give quest to some puppy pack to "purify" the spirit, so they can make some first-hand experience. The spirit is then purified, and the Koldunist will come back to Grandfather Thunder for a new "spirit", thus bartering something else. And the unwelcome spirit will exist in a costant state of corruption/purification, which is probably a hellish existence.
                    Which in turn corrupts grand father Thunder.....great plan....

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                    • #11
                      The old Thunder had always striked me as someone on the extreme end of the spectrum. Like his Tribe, he\it is prone to fight fire with fire, so I think this sort of tactic would be quite in character.
                      And I don't think action = corruption, just because you're near something corrupt will not corrupt on the spot. There're a lot of descriptions, chronicles and IC-text saying that the Spirals need a lot of time and great rituals to actually corrupt spirits, especially the great ones.
                      That said, exstensively dealing with a koldun would corrupt a spirit, but I never said he\it would do it extensively, only that he could do it. As a time-to-time tactic is a winning one: an enemy make something for you, and in exchange you steer him against another opponent of yours, that he will weaken.

                      Of course, the Falcon or other Totems would never do it, but the Thunder is kind of strange, so I think the idea holds up


                      ====================================
                      "Worst English-language User" 2011, 2012, 2013, 2014, 2015 running for the 2017
                      [Unofficial Clanbook] Nagaraja: the Masquerade


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                      • #12
                        Gaia doesn't = morally pure as driven snow. She's a goddess embodying the entirety of planet Earth, and that includes things like supervolcanoes, 10.0 earthquakes and planet-killing asteroid strikes. Gaia isn't Lawful Good. She created the cycle of nature---and nature is brutal.

                        As for Grandfather Thunder: in "A Tribe Falls", one option is that Grandfather Thunder petitions Gaia to become her consort. Gaia sets an impossible task, as a spirit of her caliber isn't going to shack up with just anybody. Obviously, Grandfather Thunder fails, and...he jumps ship.

                        Shadow Lords believe in 'fight fire with fire'. They make backroom deals with vampires, ignore some Wyrm-creatures to go after others, and, as such, have gained a sinister reputation among the other Garou tribes. Grandfather Thunder is the Shadow Lords' totem. He's just as conniving as they are...

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Demigod Beast View Post
                          Gaia doesn't = morally pure as driven snow. She's a goddess embodying the entirety of planet Earth, and that includes things like supervolcanoes, 10.0 earthquakes and planet-killing asteroid strikes. Gaia isn't Lawful Good. She created the cycle of nature---and nature is brutal.
                          You've got it backwards. As a spirit, Gaia's existence defines the possibility of life as we know it. Her avatars have also given codes to her chosen to let them sort out what they should and shouldn't do.

                          Also, planet-killing asteroid strikes are often presented as acts of beings like Rorg, possibly of higher spiritual rank.

                          As for Grandfather Thunder: in "A Tribe Falls", one option is that Grandfather Thunder petitions Gaia to become her consort. Gaia sets an impossible task, as a spirit of her caliber isn't going to shack up with just anybody. Obviously, Grandfather Thunder fails, and...he jumps ship.

                          Shadow Lords believe in 'fight fire with fire'. They make backroom deals with vampires, ignore some Wyrm-creatures to go after others, and, as such, have gained a sinister reputation among the other Garou tribes. Grandfather Thunder is the Shadow Lords' totem. He's just as conniving as they are...
                          Those scenarios posit ways in which any tribe could fall, so they can't really be used as ringing, obvious endorsements of anything.

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Saur Ops Specialist View Post

                            Those scenarios posit ways in which any tribe could fall, so they can't really be used as ringing, obvious endorsements of anything.
                            Agree. 'A Tribe Falls' features cases where the various tribes throw the baby out with the bathwater and accidentally become the thing they hate most. If you want that to happen via Koldunic hijinks, great, but that doesn't mean such catastrophic failure is merely 'business as usual' for the tribe of Thunder.

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                            • #15
                              Rorg....is an Incarna, dwelling solely in the Aetherial Realm.

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