Are the Stargazers a needed tribe?

[Ana Mizuki]

I came to WtA very late, at the end of Revised in fact. So I never truly got to experience the Stargazers in a major way.

However, I have read a lot about them, including both tribebooks. And, well, I cannot help but feel they never truly added to the game anything new. Aside from Kailindo.

They are an asian tribe, but even in 1st edition Shadow Lords all ready had Hakken in Japan. They basically are monks in a search for enlightement and so they are calm and collected. They eschew posessions and ties and dislike the Weaver strongly.

To me, that doesn't really sound werewolfy at all. Especially when the focus is so heavily on the human aspects, with a much lessened focus on the wolf. I mean, that is true with all idealistic tribes, but generally there is a secondary thing for lupus to chomp on. It doesn't help that Gazers generally are portrayed as somehow perfect, when even the Children of Gaia get called on tokenism in the books.

And they offer very little that Children of Gaia or Uktena couldn't offer.

I don't know, I just feel that them leaving in revised did not actually matter as much as if say the Fenrir or Furies had left.

[idpersona]

I don't know, I just feel that them leaving in revised did not actually matter as much as if say the Fenrir or Furies had left.

Eh. I think you could drop any individual Tribe and it wouldn't effect the overall Setting all that much. That being said, I see your point.

They were just about the smallest Tribe anyway (tied with the Talons). And once the Hengeyokai book came out, it was evident that the Stargazers should always have been part of that quasi-Setting. Around the end of Revised the decision was finally made to move them over there but it didn't really matter much since, being as small as they were, they usually didn't have a terribly big impact on games already.

[Ana Mizuki]

Eh. I think you could drop any individual Tribe and it wouldn't effect the overall Setting all that much. That being said, I see your point.

They were just about the smallest Tribe anyway (tied with the Talons). And once the Hengeyokai book came out, it was evident that the Stargazers should always have been part of that quasi-Setting. Around the end of Revised the decision was finally made to move them over there but it didn't really matter much since, being as small as they were, they usually didn't have a terribly big impact on games already.

The size of a tribe generally has never been an issue with how popular a tribe is. But yeah,I think them being a non-entity in Hengeyokai was weird. Especially as that would be the group they would be the closest to. Instead, they were treated as being outsiders even among -that- setting.

[PMárk]

They are a connection to a region and culture and somewhat a pop-culture trope. Some people like to play Werewolf kung-fu monks. That's enough reason to me.

[Maitrecorbo]

I've only read a few werewolf books and never played a game so you may take what i say with a grain of salt as there are a lot of things i probably didnt understand quite right.
But for me the interest towards the stargazer were never about the werewolf kung-fu monk side of things. It was more that, to my understanding, they had an approach towards rage that was very different from the rest of the tribes. I saw it as a weird mix of denial, acceptance, mastery and transcendence of Rage that made the tribe appealing to me.

[PMárk]

Quite true, I naturally oversimplified it. Honestly, the philosophical side is much more interesting to me too.

[Ana Mizuki]

I've only read a few werewolf books and never played a game so you may take what i say with a grain of salt as there are a lot of things i probably didnt understand quite right.
But for me the interest towards the stargazer were never about the werewolf kung-fu monk side of things. It was more that, to my understanding, they had an approach towards rage that was very different from the rest of the tribes. I saw it as a weird mix of denial, acceptance, mastery and transcendence of Rage that made the tribe appealing to me.

That is cool ^^

For me, it always felt that they weren't given the kind of issues with Rage that Children of Gaia or Furies had. That, and them being so heavily monastic with the celibacy feels a bit weird for a creature that is half-wolf. That, and they never truly felt part of either Hengeyokai OR Garou Nation.

[Heavy Arms]

I think the Stargazers have a role in the game (though poorly implemented), but they don't really have a role as a Tribe.

The simplest solution is to make them a cross-Tribal camp of Asian werewolves that takes in any Garou seeking to follow their teachings. Their low numbers can easily be attributed to the lack of in-setting popularity of their teachings. This also makes it easier on why they don't have a lot of Lupus Garou to explain their very human approach to things.

[Aya Tari]

I think that Stargazers function best as an adoptive Tribe rather than a born Tribe.

[AnubisXy]

The simplest solution is to make them a cross-Tribal camp of Asian werewolves that takes in any Garou seeking to follow their teachings. Their low numbers can easily be attributed to the lack of in-setting popularity of their teachings. This also makes it easier on why they don't have a lot of Lupus Garou to explain their very human approach to things.

I tend to run the Stargazers like that in my games. Also the Children of Gaia.

[Ana Mizuki]

I think the Stargazers have a role in the game (though poorly implemented), but they don't really have a role as a Tribe.

The simplest solution is to make them a cross-Tribal camp of Asian werewolves that takes in any Garou seeking to follow their teachings. Their low numbers can easily be attributed to the lack of in-setting popularity of their teachings. This also makes it easier on why they don't have a lot of Lupus Garou to explain their very human approach to things.

Yeah, given the first tribebook, it is very much fitting for them to be like that.

But in general, another issue I have with them is that they never felt they were involved in the setting. Like, if they truly had been trying to teach the Nation for centuries, why is Kailindo so obscure? Why can't other tribe say any personal feelings about them other than "they talk a lot and are calm". They just... existed, apparently.

So, yeah, them being a multi-tribal camp makes sense.

[Demigod Beast]

I like them. Every rule has an exception: most Garou are berserkers, but Stargazers are meditant monks and tranquil shamans. They're the exception to the normal Garou mindset.

[Saur Ops Specialist]

I like them. Every rule has an exception: most Garou are berserkers, but Stargazers are meditant monks and tranquil shamans. They're the exception to the normal Garou mindset.

The conflict being that if you have Rage, you're still a berserker, and you have to have Rage to be a werewolf, so...

[glamourweaver]

I like the Gazers, given the unique way they approach their Rage and their perspective of the Weaver.

The Tribe that doesn't sit right for me are the Children of Gaia - they have cause without culture. I just made them into a multi-tribal Camp, which I think fits their themes better. It also accounts for their absence in the parts of the world where their goal is realized without them looking like they're bad at their job. It's just Garou in East Asia or Africa who believe in CoG agenda of unity join the Beast Courts or Ahadi (respectively) instead. The CoG specifically exist as an organization to pursue that goal where it hasn't been realized.

[Lian]

Yes, they cover a broad ethnicity and a conceptual place


Now Fianna and Get I'd question the need for. I'll also point out the Dead/fallen tribes seem to exist purely to fall/die. I mean the white Howlers were large enough to be a tribe when their whole territory was part of a small island(at that point Hakken are a tribe!)