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"Silver Fangs" PB 2 & Under - where do they go, what do they do?

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  • "Silver Fangs" PB 2 & Under - where do they go, what do they do?

    Silver Fangs require minimum Pure Breed 3. We also know that the tribe has taken various desperate attempts to preserve as much Pure Breed as they can. The implication is that there is a not insignificant amount of Garou of Silver Fang stock who "fall out" of Falcon's favor because they lack the requisite Pure Breed. These Garou have to become members of another tribe. Yet I can't recall this situation ever being addressed in the source materials even though this has to be a factor in the game setting. Here are my thoughts on how this should be handled.

    1) I don't think this a significant amount of Garou in the sense that the Silver Fangs are hemorrhaging members, but I do think it would be large enough to be noticeable and impact tribal politics.

    2) What about the tribes they join?
    a)I think we can identify a lot of tribes such Garou won't be joining. No Bone Gnawers, Uktena, or Wendigo. I don't see any desire of SFs who would join the BG, and I don't think the Pure Ones would accept any. Because their numbers are already extremely low, I think Silent Striders and Stargazers are also out.
    b) There are some tribes a few members might join, but probably would not be in great numbers. These would be Glass Walkers, Black Furies, and Children of Gaia. Each tribe is very focused on a particular mindset that I feel the overwhelming mass of such Garou would not want to join them. They may have a few odd ducks here and there as curiosities.
    c) I think most such Garou would join only a few tribes: Fianna, Get of Fenris, Shadow Lords, and Red Talons (for the lupus among them). These tribes have a real sense of tradition, strong ties to the Silver Fangs traditionally, and are strongly associated with certain SF royal houses. I imagine the Fianna would be the tribe of choice for most Silver Fangs from Western Europe, and the Shadow Lords for those in Russia and Asia. A fair number still go to the Get and Talons, but because those tribes are far harsher, there is probably a noticeable drop off compared to the big two.

    3) What about the Pure Breed of these tribal newcomers? Technically speaking, I imagine their PB would be set to zero if it is "totem specific." However, I also feel that since the Silver Fangs are are the original tribe and first heroes of the Garou, that the other tribes' features probably accept them to a certain degree so that if they are PB 2 or 1, they retain that even if in another tribe. Exceptions made for Glass Walkers and Bone Gnawers since their totems are so spiritually polluting that it kills PB dead.

    4) There have to be older lineages of well established "ex-Silver Fangs" in some of the tribes back from the days when the Silver Fangs cast out those didn't meet their exact standards. I imagine there are various dynasties among the Fianna, Shadow Lords, Red Talons, and Get of Fenris who trace their origins back to the SF even if they are now thoroughly bred in with the tribe.

    5) This creates an interesting dynamic. Are such cast offs residually loyal to the SFs (I imagine many Fianna and Get newcomers would be)? Resentful and angry (I imagine those that are would flock to the Shadow Lords)? What about their distant ties to the SFs? Do they see them as still proud and honorable in the modern days, or glad they are not part of a decrepit falling tribe? I think it all depends on the individuals, but clearly this would add some complexity to tribal politics.

    6) What about within the tribe? How do the older/original members of those tribes feel? I think how Shadow Lords would treat such members to be very different from the Fianna and Get of Fenris. Anything from being welcoming of receiving such royal blood, to viewing them as incompetents losers, bastards with potential, or just another green recruit.

    Looking forward to your comments and your own ideas.
    Last edited by Black Fox; 05-18-2017, 01:49 PM.

  • #2
    Kinfolk a Breed Apart says on page 15 that when a new child is born to the Fangs, his mother is interviewed and various magics are worked to verify his paternity.

    I'm sure that occasionaly exemptions are made in cases of arranged marriages with other tribes or carefully negotiated breeding arrangements with wolf Kinfolk...

    Otherwise...if they find the Father is not of Silver Fang blood, they take the child away.

    the official story, is that their placed with foster parents less particular about breeding, and it says most garou would prefer to believe the official story... implying that their just killed.

    You can go with either... and it can vary I think, on if a particular sept leader has a soft or hard heart...

    Incidently... it does list the Bone Gnawers as one of the tribes they might offer the child to... but I find that I agree with you...

    I doubt the Fangs would want to give the gnawers even their cast off Bastards.

    Same reason I doubted they'd hire a Gnawer Kinfolk to work as a maid on their estate...

    http://forum.theonyxpath.com/forum/m...lays-of-wealth
    Last edited by Prince of the Night; 05-18-2017, 08:36 AM.


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    • #3
      Offing a cub with too low a pedigree isn't just hard-hearted, but dumb beyond dumb, of the kind that the tribe probably stopped a long time ago. Not long enough ago, perhaps, but almost definitely not modern practice.

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      • #4
        I said thats what it implied in the book not that I condoned it...

        thoughts on my argument, they'd not want to offer even their castoff bastards to the bone gnawers?
        Last edited by Prince of the Night; 05-18-2017, 10:44 AM.


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        • #5
          Originally posted by Prince of the Night View Post
          I said thats what it implied in the book not that I condoned it...

          thoughts on my argument, they'd not want to offer even their castoff bastards to the bone gnawers?
          A) Anyone but the Bone Gnawers
          B) The Bone Gnawers will take Anyone, even those bastard Silver Fangs.

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          • #6
            Giving their unwanted kids to the Bone Gnawers makes the absolute most sense for one simple reason:

            The Gnawers don't care about lineage, and they're not going to raise their adopted kids to care about lineage. Give them to the Gnawers while they're still too young to know any better, and they'll grow up a Gnawer with no knowledge of their true ancestry, and no desire to find out. The Gnawers are "mutts" with all sorts of lineages already mixed in, so a white coat isn't going to scream, "they must be a Silver Fang!" or merit any real curiosity. The Silver Fang Houses also represent a wider array of ethnic groups than most of the other Tribes. It's a lot easier to find a Middle Eastern Gnawer to take in a cub of House Wise Heart than it would be to find a Get of the proper looks.

            Any Tribe with Pure Breed is a tribe that cares about lineage on some levels, which means a Silver Fang cast off is going to get curious about their own.

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            • #7
              Children of Gaia adopt everyone even spirals.

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              • #8
                Pure Breed 2 is like Spock among the Vulcans.



                What's a dirty mongrel to the Silver Fangs is an incredibly rare and noble-looking aristocrat to everyone else. Bone Gnawers would reject a Garou that had ANY pure breed too because that's in their manifesto.

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post
                  Pure Breed 2 is like Spock among the Vulcans.



                  What's a dirty mongrel to the Silver Fangs is an incredibly rare and noble-looking aristocrat to everyone else. Bone Gnawers would reject a Garou that had ANY pure breed too because that's in their manifesto.

                  Why would they reject a garou with PB? The revised tb even has a merit specifically for having noble blood.


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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Ana Mizuki View Post

                    Why would they reject a garou with PB? The revised tb even has a merit specifically for having noble blood.
                    The same way Bone Gnawers can't have Resources? The whole point of the tribe is they reject the trappings of wealth, power, and prestige. It's like asking why Black Furies would reject Male Homids or Lupus.

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                    • #11
                      I imagine any cast offs know they are from Silver Fang stock because until they have the First Change, they don't know what level of Pure Breed the Garou cub will have. That kinfolk family lineage may have reliably produced litters of PB 3 Garou, but at some point a son or daughter has their first Garou child, and fifteen years later it becomes apparent the line (from that individual at least) is now PB 2 and the other Silver Fangs recoil - no more mating with that kinfolk family, ship them off to somewhere. The kinfolk family and Garou obviously know where their lineage comes from, but they're treated like bastards and not part of the family anymore.

                      If that wasn't an issue of lines slowly losing the PB needed, I don't think there'd be the ridiculous inbreeding the tribe is known for. This isn't the case of SF fooling around with someone else (although that is always the possibility), but simple genetic drift as certain aspects are lost over time.

                      Only in very unusual situations would a Garou from a Silver Fang line not already know that is their heritage

                      I see no reason why Bone Gnawers would be a preferred destination for these cast offs. What kinfolk or Garou parents would want their child adopted by Rat? They would go from the alpha to the omega tribe, have terrible peers (compared to their social ties and cultural expectations beforehand), lose all contact with their Ancestors and likely stick out like a sore thumb in terms of culture. If a Silver Fang from the Middle East is looking for a tribe and can't find one of the ones I find most likely (although I'd imagine Shadow Lords being close by and there might even be a few small pockets of Fianna and even Get whose regional origins are from the days of the Classical World), tribes like the Children of Gaia are fairly ubiquitous and would be much more preferred than the Bone Gnawers.

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                      • #12
                        I think Children of Gaia may be preferred. since they wont make an issue if the cub grows up to join another tribe.


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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post

                          The same way Bone Gnawers can't have Resources? The whole point of the tribe is they reject the trappings of wealth, power, and prestige. It's like asking why Black Furies would reject Male Homids or Lupus.
                          Nothing in character creation states that Bone Gnawers don't accept purebred cubs, just that they don't have the pb after joining. Granted, how the Gnawers are written is pretty suspeect (made a thread about it here).

                          Black Fox I think you are thinking about it too mechanically. Most rejected cubs join Gnawers because after being kicked out of their tribe, Gnawers are the first to offer them kindness and shelter. Remember that these cubs most likely knew the Nation only through the lens of the tribe they were born to, and being rejected meant they felt shame and were lost. While low pb garou cubs can be given to Children of Gaia, ones that fail the Rite of Passage or somehow shame themselves before their rite don't have that chance of being acclimated to a new tribe.


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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Ana Mizuki View Post
                            I think you are thinking about it too mechanically. Most rejected cubs join Gnawers because after being kicked out of their tribe, Gnawers are the first to offer them kindness and shelter. Remember that these cubs most likely knew the Nation only through the lens of the tribe they were born to, and being rejected meant they felt shame and were lost. While low pb garou cubs can be given to Children of Gaia, ones that fail the Rite of Passage or somehow shame themselves before their rite don't have that chance of being acclimated to a new tribe.
                            I think we're talking about two very different scenarios. The type of Garou you are talking about are the screw ups and failures who can't hack it as Garou of other tribes. They may not have many options to go. Other tribes may not want them at all. However, in the "They would Be Silver Fangs if they weren't PB2" scenario, there is no indication that such Garou are screw ups or failures. Their only "flaw" is that they don't have PB 3. They may not be good enough for the Silver Fangs because of pedigree issues, but I actually think most other tribes would love to have them. They'd be high in demand.

                            In other words, there is a huge difference between a Silver Fang rejected by his tribe because his fur isn't as sparkling white as it should be, and a physically weak screw up who can't pass the the grueling Get of Fenris Rite of Passage, or a talentless and stupid cub who can't master the lore of the Fianna. Now, it doesn't even need to be that severe - they might be excellent in certain ways, but overall they couldn't hack their tribe's Rite of Passage for whatever reason.

                            Now, in circumstances where the Garou of Silver Fang lineage really is a clumsy foul up (regardless of PB) who can't hack it and is discarded, then I could see them joining the Bone Gnawers, because nobody else cares. Or if the rejection is so soul crushing, that the cub becomes a despondent, whining loser and eventually finds his way to the Bone Gnawers after a rough life.

                            But for Garou who simply lack the Pure Breed 3, but otherwise are acceptable, I think their family members will make the effort to place them in a "good" tribe. Distant cousin Olaf knows Garou of this Get of Fenris sept, he'll ask them if they'll take the cub and raise them in their tribe's heritage. Or Uncle Moonhowl is friends with this Fianna, and he'll find him a good place there. Or the sept in general has a deal with some Shadow Lord sept that they'll take in any of the cubs who lack outstanding pedigree.

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                            • #15
                              And finding a sept leader had simply murdered such a child, rather then invest the time and effort... would make an intriguing plotline... but should involve the Culprit being put on trial.

                              Sure the Fangs would be able to stomach one of their blood, however dilluted, joining the Shadow Lords?

                              the Shadow Lords are their enemies...


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