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How do Shifters react to Mummies?

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  • #31
    Why should they result Wyrm-related? Being death or entropy related doesn't mean having traces of the Wyrm. Wyrm should be only corruption.
    As for scent of the true form is... harder to describe. They would maybe feel like a perfect soul infused with more life that a human could withstand?
    Last edited by Maris Streck; 11-08-2017, 06:31 PM.

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    • #32
      They would probably smell like the Kami because, at least from the viewpoint of the Garou, Mummies exist through bonding with Gaia permanently (which is why they would be immortal). While the Mummies might call their defining principles by different names, it would just be different names for Gaia according to the Garou. Since they are not allied with any part of the Triat, and since they work to preserve Balance, they would just probably be considered very powerful Kami.

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      • #33
        Originally posted by Aya Tari View Post
        They would probably smell like the Kami because, at least from the viewpoint of the Garou, Mummies exist through bonding with Gaia permanently (which is why they would be immortal).
        There's not been any indication that this is how the Spell of Life works. Also, using Renew the Cycle on a mummy causes it to fall dead asleep, so...

        While the Mummies might call their defining principles by different names, it would just be different names for Gaia according to the Garou. Since they are not allied with any part of the Triat, and since they work to preserve Balance, they would just probably be considered very powerful Kami.
        Not quite. Their method of operation is still on a side of being a bit too refined and not nearly so visceral.
        Last edited by Saur Ops Specialist; 11-08-2017, 06:03 PM.

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        • #34
          Mummies being what they are wo8uld be very annoying to Garou. Only the most desperate of Werewolves would tolerate something that can never be destroyed, refuses to die.


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          • #35
            The Amenti and other Undying do, indeed, fight similar enemies, however their goals are not the same. For one thing, the Undying are charged with protecting mortals that live in accord with Ma'at from harm. Here's where this gets bad real fast, should they manage to have Garou (and this is largely the same with most Fera) allies. If the Garou see mortal witnesses, their Litany requires that they should protect the Veil, and that almost always means killing the innocent bystanders. If the Amenti with them is Balance of merely 2 or above (this even if they're Sefekhi, who are treated as if they were one lower on the Balance scale, regarding harming others, as that allowance only refers to their own conduct, and not that of others) is working with said Garou, they will have to defend those mortals, and the moment that they do, they make themselves enemies of the Sept.

            Beyond that, it simply doesn't matter how the Reborn spin it. They died. As the Garou and almost all of the Fera see it, once you die, that's it. Yes. I know. Garou and some others have certain Gifts or rites that, under certain circumstances, return them from death. The emphasis on those is *sometimes*. The Spell of Life takes an ordinary person and changes their nature, so that they continue to return to life after death, again and again. Because the Garou and others view this as a crime against Gaia, they are duty-bound to OPPOSE the Amenti. At least if you cut off a leech's head, the vampire stays dead. The mummy, on the other hand, keeps coming back. No amount of good done by the Reborn will ever change that in the eyes of the Garou. Even though the Reborn are not undead, but are truly living, the vast majority of the Garou, and the vast majority of the Fera, are going to deem something like one of the Resurrected as unfit and unclean, and that leaves no room for them to be friends!

            ((NOTE: I'm a huge Mummy fan. It's My favourite game in the World of Darkness; none the less, there is really no love lost between them.

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            • #36
              Originally posted by Lord Vil View Post
              If the Garou see mortal witnesses, their Litany requires that they should protect the Veil, and that almost always means killing the innocent bystanders.
              I do not remember seeing this in any Werewolf book ever.


              What is tolerance? It is the consequence of humanity. We are all formed of frailty and error; let us pardon reciprocally each other's folly. That is the first law of nature.
              Voltaire, "Tolerance" (1764)

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              • #37
                Originally posted by No One of Consequence View Post

                I do not remember seeing this in any Werewolf book ever.
                It's a fairly clear implication of a tenet of the Litany that Garou tend to take more seriously than any other than defense of caerns, as well as the Renown chart (it's either that or the Garou leverage something or otherwise attempt to flip the humans in question into not talking, which can involve kidnapping instead). That said, most humans tend to run away screaming and forget if they specifically see a Garou in Crinos, so getting into fights with Amenti over it is not something that's likely to happen very often.

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                • #38
                  Originally posted by Lord Vil View Post
                  If the Garou see mortal witnesses, their Litany requires that they should protect the Veil, and that almost always means killing the innocent bystanders.
                  This is true, however it is a whole grey area on how strongly garou can rely on the the Delirium to keep the Veil intact. It has come up often in games, when a fight starts at an inopportune moment. Will shifting into Crinos be enough to make most mortals panic and later forget or rationalize away any supernatural in the scene.
                  Does the theoretical chance of someone being to strong-willed to forget merit the death of all witnesses ?

                  I guess, different septs and tribes have developed different positions on those topics, as well as the emergence of cameras in mobile phones and so on...

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                  • #39
                    Originally posted by heinrich View Post
                    This is true, however it is a whole grey area on how strongly garou can rely on the the Delirium to keep the Veil intact. It has come up often in games, when a fight starts at an inopportune moment. Will shifting into Crinos be enough to make most mortals panic and later forget or rationalize away any supernatural in the scene.
                    Does the theoretical chance of someone being to strong-willed to forget merit the death of all witnesses ?

                    I guess, different septs and tribes have developed different positions on those topics, as well as the emergence of cameras in mobile phones and so on...
                    I think the Garou have enough experience collected over the hundreds of years to by now have a keen eye for human behavior in the face of Delirium, and which kind of behaviors that the humans in question display indicate a problem.

                    14% of the population will not forget, and 2% will not forget and not rationalize.
                    The thing that those two groups have in common, is that they are the ones that don't panic their brains out.

                    So, If the Garou want to simply really make sure, or time is pressing, it's easy: Kill any witnesses that do not full-on animalistically panic, as this is the one thing that both these troublesome groups don't do. No need to go after those that hit uncontrolled fight or flight. Those will forget. They also won't be the ones reaching for their smartphones.

                    If the Garou somehow have enough time and feel merciful, the ones they *actually* really need to take care of are those that either show no reaction at all, or those that are maybe afraid, but in full control and hostile - since those are the marks of witnesses that clearly remember.
                    Last edited by Ambrosia; 02-23-2018, 07:16 AM.


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                    • #40
                      Originally posted by Ambrosia View Post
                      I think the Garou have enough experience collected over the hundreds of years to by now have a keen eye for human behavior in the face of Delirium, and which kind of behaviors that the humans in question display indicate a problem.

                      14% of the population will not forget, and 2% will not forget and not rationalize.
                      The thing that those two groups have in common, is that they are the ones that don't panic their brains out.

                      So, If the Garou want to simply really make sure, or time is pressing, it's easy: Kill any witnesses that do not full-on animalistically panic, as this is the one thing that both these troublesome groups don't do. No need to go after those that hit uncontrolled fight or flight. Those will forget. They also won't be the ones reaching for their smartphones.

                      If the Garou somehow have enough time and feel merciful, the ones they *actually* really need to take care of are those that either show no reaction at all, or those that are maybe afraid, but in full control and hostile - since those are the marks of witnesses that clearly remember.
                      Yeah, doesn't help, I guess. If one is in a fight with a couple of fomoris then one doesn't have a round, or even one of the additional Rage actions to spare just to scan the room to check if there is someone who's supposed to be in a supernatural panic is actually just non-supernaturally in panic.

                      And, while garou have been around for centuries, the individual garou on the scene is still limited by his perception + primal-urge or perception + empathy dice pool. If the person in question is that strong willed, then this person might get a manipulation + subterfuge to counter any observation the garou makes.

                      And that is not even the worst part. The witnesses, panicked or not, might all or in pars flee. Sure with the Rage actions a fight is only a few rounds and the witnesses won't have made it that far, but potentially in different directions each. Though luck. Catching the relevant people is just as difficult than identifying them.

                      While the Red Talons have gifts to destory/alter physical evidence of their actions, there isn't really really a gift to alter memories to deal with this problem. So, if a mortal really learned about garou accidentally, you either kill him or invite him into the tribe's kinfolk community (if you are a child of gaia and know the Rite to do so). Or you go and summon spirits and make them alter the humans memories.
                      But since there isn't a gift or really any other tools or mention of this, I guess, the authors want us to assume the garou do in-game think the Delirium is sufficient to protect the Veil (as long as direct witnessing is concerned, as opposed to forensic eveidence).

                      At least I assume that most garou in the books rely on the Delirium to keep them hidden and I remember the Wyrm Wolf novel, where a Child of Gaia shifts into Crinos and goes on a parcour-like back-street run, hoping the shadows will conceal his presence from the mortals. But the rules don't really seem to support that, and when the ST decides to make a plot point of this in any game, it is an interesting question who the PCs and the local sept think such a case should be resolved...
                      Last edited by heinrich; 02-23-2018, 08:24 AM.

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                      • #41
                        I should also note something that I forgot to state earlier. If you read the Revised Silent Strider book, you get some contradictory views on mummies, however little paints them in a positive light. The one segment that talks about them being allies refers to them as useless allies, because they die easily and don't come back fast enough. The early part of the book actually describes the Undying as one of the TOP 4 enemies of the Silent Striders, but the one of those top 4 that are the lowest priority, as they have bigger problems with mages, banes, and vampires, and the Reborn tend to do little harm.

                        They make it explicitly clear that the Spell of Life is a foul rite that fooled the Wyrm of Balance into allowing what Gaia never wanted, and that the very nature of their resurrection is blasphemy. That doesn't exactly leave room for them to be friends. A mummy's best bet when dealing with Garou is to never deal with them.

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                        • #42
                          The same way they respond to vampires, and Green Peace volunteers, and pizza delivery people, and so forth....
                          ...with as much lethal violence as they can get away with.

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                          • #43
                            Originally posted by Lord Vil View Post
                            (...) The early part of the book actually describes the Undying as one of the TOP 4 enemies of the Silent Striders (...)
                            Did Mummies do something against the Silent Striders, or do they act in a specific way that Silent Striders are opposed to, that they are considered to be enemies by them ?

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                            • #44
                              Originally posted by Muad'Dib View Post
                              Did Mummies do something against the Silent Striders, or do they act in a specific way that Silent Striders are opposed to, that they are considered to be enemies by them ?

                              Bane Mummies did as part of Sets expulsion of the Striders, other Mummies hate Bane Mummies as well.......maybe Silent Striders who don't have Wyrm sensing gifts can't tell the difference?

                              Theres also some big differences between the new Mummies in MtR and the original Mummies ( Mummy 1st and 2nd Ed), which may play a part.

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                              • #45
                                Originally posted by Ambrosia View Post
                                14% of the population will not forget, and 2% will not forget and not rationalize.
                                The thing that those two groups have in common, is that they are the ones that don't panic their brains out.
                                There's one problem with this - Garou do not get to read the rulebook. i.e. You are metagaming their actions. There is some merit in what youre describing but it should be a lot less optimised, only garou who are experienced at regularly dealing with delirium aftermath would maybe work this out.

                                Theres a similar problem with a lot of the discussion in this thread, Sense the Wyrm and Scent of the True Form should be unreliable in practice in the game world because the results are given by the storyteller as a feeling not a predictable mechanism with a definite yes/no result. Try to remember that the rules should be secondary to the story and allow for some leeway in your interpretation.

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