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  • Uktena Sorcery Foci and Paradigm

    Okay so I enjoy using the Mage 20 ideas for Magic Foci and Paradigms and what not for Sorcery. In my WWWW (Werewolf Wild West) game One of the players is a Metis Uktena that studied sorcery, I believe Enchantment and a Sorcerous version of Pyrokinesis Path of Flame. So if you run with the idea that Uktena like Kitsune and Bastet like to steal magic secrets how should his Paradigm work. The player is a D&D'er so he never puts thought into much of the pregame histories for his dude, and wants to just roll with it. So if he was an Uktena that was encouraged to steal magical secrets, I'm thinking he raided a Tremere's Wild West research lab. If he wasn't trained by his Tribe's Shamans, should he just use the Tremere philosophy when doing mortal sorcery, or should he be somewhere in between Shamanism and Occultism? Or oddly would he just translate it into his Tribal understanding and still perform it all through a Shamanic lens, since he wasn't a homid so he wouldn't necessarily be tied to only one tribe's world view, and may have a hodgepodge.

    I know all three ways are viable, what do you'all think though?


    It is a time for great deeds!

  • #2
    Originally posted by Eldagusto View Post
    Okay so I enjoy using the Mage 20 ideas for Magic Foci and Paradigms and what not for Sorcery. In my WWWW (Werewolf Wild West) game One of the players is a Metis Uktena that studied sorcery, I believe Enchantment and a Sorcerous version of Pyrokinesis Path of Flame. So if you run with the idea that Uktena like Kitsune and Bastet like to steal magic secrets how should his Paradigm work. The player is a D&D'er so he never puts thought into much of the pregame histories for his dude, and wants to just roll with it. So if he was an Uktena that was encouraged to steal magical secrets, I'm thinking he raided a Tremere's Wild West research lab. If he wasn't trained by his Tribe's Shamans, should he just use the Tremere philosophy when doing mortal sorcery, or should he be somewhere in between Shamanism and Occultism? Or oddly would he just translate it into his Tribal understanding and still perform it all through a Shamanic lens, since he wasn't a homid so he wouldn't necessarily be tied to only one tribe's world view, and may have a hodgepodge.

    I know all three ways are viable, what do you'all think though?
    Can the sphere paradigms even being used without Arete? I am not fan of cross class in WoD, but I heard from a vampire ST mentioning something like that for tremere as well.
    I can't imagine though how this can be achieved without a core Mage trait.

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    • #3
      I am confused at what you are asking exactly. Therianthropes in the WoD can't learn awakened magic. Normally Kitsune and certain tribes of Bastet and Garou can learn Path magic and Rituals, and it sounds like this character already has. When they see a Mage do something really cool they convert it in paths and rituals, they don't learn actual Magik. So do you want this character to do actual Magik on top of everything else?

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      • #4
        I'm talking about Sorcery using foci. So will the Uktena use enochian chants and grimoires or will he use sacred songs and drum beats. Sorcery already uses foci, I'm just suggesting needing 7 foci like M20.


        It is a time for great deeds!

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        • #5
          There's no real way to give a good answer to this, because it entirely depends on the individual Uktena in question. How did they learn their sorcery? Do they treat that knowledge as something separate from their innately accessible powers, or something they try to merge into one practice?

          An Uktena that steals their sorcery from a Hermetic and has no real way to translate it into a "Gaian" Focus (also, remember for clarity that in M20 Focus describes the whole of a mage's beliefs, while Instruments are the tools of your magic) is going to look different from an Uktena that learns from a kinfolk Dreamspeaker shaman, who both will look different from an Uktena that learns from a Brazilian Verbena syncretist that's mixing European, African, and South American mysticism.

          I think a bigger issue for the specifics of your posted situation is that your player doesn't seem to care. Without any mechanical incentives to engage with the Focus concept like there is for full mages, coming up with ways this might look are pointless if the player isn't going to care about them. It seems like the player is just going to do whatever you hand down as the rules for accessing these normally non-Werewolf powers.

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          • #6
            Yeah but the rest of the group cares and I like the whole cohesion of the system. I know I can make any of the ways work, I'm asking here what people find personally a more interesting idea.

            While also asking as a secondary question what do you think most of the fera that steal Sorcery do, do you think they translate it into their own system, that seems what bubasti would probably do with Egyptian style magic, while Uktena in the future seem to make fusions.


            It is a time for great deeds!

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            • #7
              If we're dealing with a player that doesn't really care as much as you or the group? Have the Paths this character has obtained modeled in a Shamanistic style that merges well with Gaian cosmology. If for no other reason, it avoids a person that's not familiar with playing the wider WoD trying to play two games at once. The Paths can mirror regular Gaian rituals and such.

              What's most interesting, to me, has to be tempered by the group's interests. A Gaian merger style seems to suit the player's desires (just getting into play without a lot of complications) with the group's interests (greater emphasis on magical style in Numina use). All the other ways have lots of interesting options, but they're lost on a situation where everyone isn't invested.

              I generally don't like to have "usual" for this sort of thing. Though I feel that any Fera that puts enough effort into learning these things eventually gets up doing more syncretism than anything else. Getting access to different Paths often means dealing with Numina users from many different backgrounds.

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              • #8
                Originally posted by Eldagusto View Post
                I know all three ways are viable, what do you'all think though?

                I would generally be tempted to say that when someone "steals" magic from a different system of Sorcery, you need to mimic the foci and system that you stole them from. So if you steal a Tremere's notes, you're going to need to use the same system of magic the Tremere used when he casts his spells. At most you could figure out ways to mix your system and their system together, but even then you'll need to use a few foci and anybody familiar with your system of magic would notice you are doing something very strange when casting the stolen magical spells.

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                • #9
                  To play up the whole "Uktena steal forbidden secrets' dealy I'd make it look seriously wyrm tainted. Thaumturgy isn't just Hermetic magic... which in and of itself has some questionable directions. Its BLOOD magic. Make it look Creepy and Unholy. Make it useful but make it cost. Every act of enchanment should make them feel creeped out and wonder "why don't we use Rite of Fetish"

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                  • #10
                    Just an idea, if you're stealing Thaumaturgy you could look to Shattered Dreams. the Camazotz used blood magic and had a system set up to reflect how blood worked its way in. Since you're a shifter and not a vampire, you could import this system. It would give something of a drawback for every time he wanted to tap into powers that shifters really aren't meant to have. Also since you're snagging from vampires and not other sorcerers, I'd be tempted to show a wyrmish influence. If you wanted something cleaner you could look to the Mage version of sorcerers or even have them working to recover codex's written by Camazotz who had non-wyrm based blood magic.

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