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How a vampire would imprison a Werewolf?

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  • How a vampire would imprison a Werewolf?

    Hi!

    My PCs assaulted the haven of some magic student vampires (abyss mystics, thaumaturgy and some necromancy). They got quite unlucky. There are 3 survivors, they were knocked out by bashing damage.

    The surviving vampires are more curious than clever and they want to capture and study the werewolves.

    The vampires have some knowledge about Garou. Something like occultism 4-5 and 200-300 years of studding supernatural beings. How do you think those vampires would imprisoned the PC?

    Many heavy chains, all the silver they’ve available, keep them in the dark, give them blood every night. What other security measures are reasonable?

    I remember reading Garous are very difficult to blood bound, but I can’t find it in the books, do you know where it located is?
    Are the rules for abominations (embracing Garous) more up to date than those in the Under a Blood Red Moon book?


  • #2
    With great difficulty. Ward Vs Lupines. Heavy Dominate use. Restraints in a room with absolutely NO reflective surfaces of any kind what so ever, ever. They absolutely do NOT want to be trying to feed a Garou any vampire Vitae or be attempting to embrace once if they have decent Lore type knowledge as all previous documentation will cover how very VERY badly that ends.

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    • #3
      Originally posted by Moirdryd View Post
      With great difficulty. Ward Vs Lupines. Heavy Dominate use. Restraints in a room with absolutely NO reflective surfaces of any kind what so ever, ever. They absolutely do NOT want to be trying to feed a Garou any vampire Vitae or be attempting to embrace once if they have decent Lore type knowledge as all previous documentation will cover how very VERY badly that ends.
      Could you, please, elaborate a bit more? What can go wrong with blood bounding a Garou (different from blood bounding any other powerful being)?

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      • #4
        My understanding is that many Garou are allergic to vitae, though I can never recall where it is outlined. It is, ultimately, possible to blood bond, from what I know.

        As per embracing them, the most recent rules are in The Black Hand: A Guide to the Tal’Mahe’Ra. I can look them up later, if you need. There are upsides, somewhat. The downside are also numerous. This is what I recall off-hand.
        - There is a chance Gaia or Luna (forget which) doesn't allow the embrace. They roll Gnosis or something and, depending on the results, just die. But it can succeed.
        - They typically fall into Harano at some point after that, knowing they are abominations unto Gaia.
        There is other stuff, like increased frenzy, still weak to silver - but also fire and sunlight, etc. But obviously they gain strengths, blood, and disciplines too.


        Ideally they would imprison them in a lightless room, bound tightly in steel and iron chains, at the bottom of a deep hole. And routinely work on blood bonding them, Conditioning them through Dominate, and instilling a Dominate command to not harm them (if possible). They wouldn't be unwise to ward around the prison with more Ward/Warding Circle against Spirits and Garou. And if they have Path of Spirit Manipulation, they could have some spirits help guard the area as well.

        At least that's the ideal way. They might be less methodical, for all I know. But any Cainite worth their salt, especially those of several centuries, know to fear Garou. Keeping three alive in captivity it a dangerous gamble. Much like a velociraptor, I wouldn't want to worry about keeping them bound.

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        • #5
          Yeah, those are all good ideas, I think.

          About the Embrace.

          There is a chance Gaia or Luna (forget which) doesn't allow the embrace. They roll Gnosis or something and, depending on the results, just die. But it can succeed.
          The Garou rolls Gnosis, don't remember diff, If the roll succeeds the Garou dies pacefully and the embrace fails, if the roll fails, the Garou dies painfully and the embrace fails. Only if they botch you have an Abomination. And under 20th editions it's impossible to Botch if you have at least one success. Notably, Willpower can be used in this roll.

          So, if the Garou doesn't want to become a vampire and has at least one willpower point, he won't. In that circumstance you would have to torture the beast until it's devoid of willpower to resist to have the slimmest chance to transform it into an Abomination...a chance that increases if the Garou has little Permanent Gnosis...Even if he want's to become a vampire there's a very good chance of failure.

          It's important to note that knowing all of this would be nigh impossible even with massive amounts of Garou Lore, probably not even Elder Garou know this. A really good amount of Lore would inform these ocultists that Garou almost inevitably die when embraced, an thus it's a bad move if you want to keep them alive...but it could be worth a chance if they happen to die anyway. At least to see how the process works and to study the undead abomination if milacurously the embrace suceeds.

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          • #6
            I would say that silver chains would be a good start. Blood bonding might be good too. Dominate might work, but it could be hard to tell how well the Dominate has taken effect. You don't want to release a werewolf that you think is Dominated but actually has resisted. Maybe you knocked a werewolf unconscious, you could keep it that way with drugs. Kind of like an induced coma if you have the medical equipment and knowledge available.

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            • #7
              I wouldn't use silver chains. Pure silver isn't a strong metal, not suitable to trap a strong being. By just taking one Aggravated a Garou could transform in Crinos and break them.

              Also silver may provide them a mean to suicide, which may be a concern once you start the experiments...

              Keeping the wolf drugged it's easier said than done thanks to their great stamina, but it HAS been done (by DNA), so it's a tried & true approach if you have potent enough drugs (and the werewolf doesn't have Resist Toxin)
              Last edited by Aleph; 10-26-2017, 03:53 PM.

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              • #8
                Realistically, I can't see any vampires risking to imprison three Garou. Maybe one Garou for future study and killing the two others. However, we all know the reason for imprisoning them is so that your PCs can escape later.

                These would be my ideas:

                1) Keep them separated in different rooms unable to talk to each other. (Ideally your PCs have some other means they can use for communication unknown to the vampires).
                2) Keep them mainly drugged with some ridiculous kind of "magical" potion made up of various herbs and plants created by use of your Occult ability. That prevents them from actively trying to escape or using certain powers (like shapechanging) despite werewolves' robust health. (perhaps as each day of confinement continues, allow PCs to begin rolling Stamina to accumulate a certain number of successes to build immunity to the drug so that the players know eventually it'll wear off and they can act on a plan).
                3) Keep them chained with the heavisest, strongest chains you can find, with little slack as possible.
                4) The rooms/cells/holes they are kept have strong doors/closed access so they can't quickly get out if they do escape the chains.
                5) If there is something they can access to get out of confinement, it is covered or protected by pure silver so that it'll cause damage if they attempt to retrieve it.
                6) Move the Garou to a location far away where if they escape, they will not have targets to kill/torture/interrogate (like ghouls or other vampires). Instead, keep them under electronic surveillance. When needed, one ghoul guard shows up to throw them down food and water. Interrogation or experimentation would be done infrequently and with lots of firepower available.
                7) Use Ward vs Lupines around each cell so that if things fail, the Garou have another barrier to cross.
                8) Use other supernatural defenses like wolfsbane and other herbal lore. That generally doesn't get much play in Werewolf rules, but you can handwave it and use simple checks like Willpower rolls or Expenditures when attempting to get by them.

                Your vampires should have some really good reasons for wanting to keep such dangerous creatures available. Maybe they are just weighing their options. But I think a good hook would be the vampires will eventually decide to kill all the PCs. The PCs know this. They also know they will be able to escape at some point in time despite the measures the vampires are taking. The question is can the PCs escape before the kill decision is made. That is where you'll get your dramatic tension.

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                • #9
                  Thank you all for the ideas.
                  Originally posted by Black Fox View Post
                  Realistically, I can't see any vampires risking to imprison three Garou. Maybe one Garou for future study and killing the two others. However, we all know the reason for imprisoning them is so that your PCs can escape later.
                  Yes, this is correct. I want to give them a chance to scape before they get blood bounded. If they don't manage to scape, the vampires are going to use them as a weapon against the vampire's enemys... And to do some experimentation too (I want then to eventually brake the blood bound).
                  But they're going to "enjoy" doing some wyrm-ish stuff for the vampires.

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                  • #10
                    One ? With a big dose of stupidity and prudence. Two? with madness , stupidity and prudence. Three? with suicidal aspirations.

                    They have to manage how to kidnap them without alerting the pack or sept. You need high Dominance and Presence, and a brilliant tactical plan.
                    Remember that werewolves stalks the night in packs. And also during the day.
                    The problem is not how to keep three garou ( well, it's also a problem..), but how to keep them hide and far away from their packmates/sept.
                    Three kidnapped garou are a big problem, a tribe hunting your vampires, it's final death 90/100.
                    Last edited by Helur; 10-27-2017, 05:13 AM.


                    -'' When the winds howl and the Storms rage, where will you run?''-

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                    • #11
                      This is something that is a fun little challenge isn't it. Silver is a must in the beginning. The thing I always imagined was tarnished (at least not reflective) silver cage underground with only one door with a ward vs garou. The cage itself. It is large enough for a garou in homid with holes that only rats could fit through. Around the cage is studs and spikes of silver wrapped around iron/steel (time frame dependent). It would prevent most garou from shifting as they would fill the space and press against all the spikes and studs at once. Shifting to lupus would be pointless as it would be hard to slip the cage without pressing against the studs and spikes as well. This is baseline if I were to do it, and I'm not even sure if its overboard or not enough.

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by erSito View Post
                        Could you, please, elaborate a bit more? What can go wrong with blood bounding a Garou (different from blood bounding any other powerful being)?
                        I'll copy it right from Ghoul: Fatal Addiction: "Garou are unlikely to be willingly ghouled. Most of them suffer allergic reactions to vampiric blood and cannot stomach it for long. Only a few can drink vitae without vomiting immediatly". So no, scholar vampires of the supernatural would certainly know they can't blood bind or embrace them, and if they drink Vampire blood they're going to cough it all out.

                        Silver chains are going to be quite useful, since strong silver presence lowers their connection with the spiritual world (=gnosis malus, just like when carrying klaives), but the sheer mass of the shapeshifting will probably break them, even if that's going to hurt. Ofc you can always "open lock" them, but vampires don't probably know all the Garou powers. Wards against lupines are more useful, but you'll need a Tremere for it and they can still be broken.

                        Maybe the best thing they can do is to drain the wolves' blood and store it somewhere before killing them - especially if they are Tremere - or attempt to dominate them. That's going to be tricky anyway, since it requires eye contact.

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by kewlimp View Post
                          This is something that is a fun little challenge isn't it. Silver is a must in the beginning. The thing I always imagined was tarnished (at least not reflective) silver cage underground with only one door with a ward vs garou. The cage itself. It is large enough for a garou in homid with holes that only rats could fit through. Around the cage is studs and spikes of silver wrapped around iron/steel (time frame dependent). It would prevent most garou from shifting as they would fill the space and press against all the spikes and studs at once. Shifting to lupus would be pointless as it would be hard to slip the cage without pressing against the studs and spikes as well. This is baseline if I were to do it, and I'm not even sure if its overboard or not enough.
                          You want to do something so the Garou can't easily slip sideways. Mages have an interesting proposition in that regards as they could make the cage exist in the Umbra too

                          Also Gifts make Garou hard to predict, the perfect cage for a young Garou might mean little for one that has goten a few of these.

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Aleph View Post

                            You want to do something so the Garou can't easily slip sideways. Mages have an interesting proposition in that regards as they could make the cage exist in the Umbra too

                            Also Gifts make Garou hard to predict, the perfect cage for a young Garou might mean little for one that has goten a few of these.
                            I was assuming a vampire without necromancy or some other way Umbral ways. If I read it right, you can't go sideways without a reflective surface anymore. So tarnished/non reflective silver and it would take iron a lot of polish to become reflective. The gifts though, that is the problem. However, all the silver would have a huge effect on any gift requiring gnosis.

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by kewlimp View Post

                              I was assuming a vampire without necromancy or some other way Umbral ways. If I read it right, you can't go sideways without a reflective surface anymore. So tarnished/non reflective silver and it would take iron a lot of polish to become reflective. The gifts though, that is the problem. However, all the silver would have a huge effect on any gift requiring gnosis.
                              It depends on whether or not the ST is using Revised or not, and whether or not someone has Inner Light, Reach the Umbra, etc.

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