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How a vampire would imprison a Werewolf?

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  • #16
    Given the allergic reaction to Vitae trying to blood bond a Garou is likely to result in having a Frenzied Crinos in the vicinity. It's also really hard to keep all reflective surfaces away from a Garou too.

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    • #17
      Originally posted by Moirdryd View Post
      Given the allergic reaction to Vitae trying to blood bond a Garou is likely to result in having a Frenzied Crinos in the vicinity. It's also really hard to keep all reflective surfaces away from a Garou too.
      Hey. I couldn't find anything about allergic reaction to vitae in the W20 book, but I remember Reading about it. Do you remember where in the book it is?

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      • #18
        Players Guide to Garou iirc or maybe the Storytellers Guide or Storytellers Handbook. It won't be in W20 as its a crossover rules material and W20 deals exclusively with WTA material, just like the previous 3 core books.

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        • #19
          Yep. Page 196-198 Storytellers Handbook

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          • #20
            Originally posted by Moirdryd View Post
            Players Guide to Garou iirc or maybe the Storytellers Guide or Storytellers Handbook. It won't be in W20 as its a crossover rules material and W20 deals exclusively with WTA material, just like the previous 3 core books.
            Originally posted by Maris Streck View Post
            I'll copy it right from Ghoul: Fatal Addiction.
            I literally wrote it in my post. Why is no one reading it =|
            But yes, it's also written in the SH.

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            • #21
              It's also got the rules for attempting to Embrace a Garou in there too

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              • #22
                Originally posted by Moirdryd View Post
                Players Guide to Garou iirc or maybe the Storytellers Guide or Storytellers Handbook. It won't be in W20 as its a crossover rules material and W20 deals exclusively with WTA material, just like the previous 3 core books.
                Not strictly true; W20 Changing Breeds has a complete Abomination rules annex for all changers at the end of chapter 3. Still doesn't note anything about vitae rejection, but it's where the most up to date Abomination rules are.

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                • #23
                  I don't have that book yet, but do the ansasi get blood bond and what not. That seems to be a horrifying creature. Worse yet(cause I think nuwisha are awesome), a nuwisha abomination

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                  • #24
                    I was to the Werewolf 20th anniversary core book Saur Ops as not containing crossover, not any of the supplements

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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by kewlimp View Post
                      I don't have that book yet, but do the ansasi get blood bond and what not. That seems to be a horrifying creature. Worse yet(cause I think nuwisha are awesome), a nuwisha abomination
                      Neither Ananasi nor Nuwisha can become Abominations. Ananasi are also immune to being blood bound, as the Ananasi protagonist's vampire boyfriend discovers in the werespider anthology story after he spikes her drinks with his blood and then tries to Yugioh the moment with YOU'VE ACTIVATED MY TRAP CARD! kind of declaration.

                      (He soon goes from undead to just dead as a result of picking up that particular idiot/villain ball.)

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                      • #26
                        Point is, vampires would be way too op if they could blood bind shifters. So they can't, and embracing them is so hard for the same exact reason (abominations make good villains but you're not expected to have them in mass production)

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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Maris Streck View Post
                          I'll copy it right from Ghoul: Fatal Addiction: "Garou are unlikely to be willingly ghouled. Most of them suffer allergic reactions to vampiric blood and cannot stomach it for long. Only a few can drink vitae without vomiting immediatly". So no, scholar vampires of the supernatural would certainly know they can't blood bind or embrace them, and if they drink Vampire blood they're going to cough it all out.
                          Though, what you quoted does not say they cannot blood bound or embraced. The first point being that most are allergic, not all. And sometimes the embrace does damage to work, thus actual Abominations occurring.

                          It looks like that book might be outdated in other ways, though. Given that it says 'mages can be ghouled normally' and I think it actually causes issues with their magic without specific interference.
                          Last edited by Monalfie; 11-03-2017, 09:06 AM.

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                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Monalfie View Post
                            Though, what you quoted does not say they cannot blood bound or embraced. The first point being that most are allergic, not all. And sometimes the embrace does damage to work, thus actual Abominations occurring.
                            Indeed, it's just harder than with humans. Especially the embrace.

                            It looks like that book might be outdated in other ways, though. Given that it says 'mages can be ghouled normally' and I think it actually causes issues with their magic without specific interference.

                            Not quite. Ghoul mage is a complex topic.

                            Ghouls Fatal Addiction IT'S very outdated, to the point that even the spell that removes the Blood Bound it's no longer valid

                            Blood Treachery has the revised rules for mage ghouls that were quite draconian. The mage is unable to increase Arete after being ghouled, (as was in Revised Corebook that also had rules), However, the problem goes above and beyond that ans the mage would LOOSE Arete and suffer Gilgul after a few years as a Ghoul when the Arete reaches 0.
                            Also if the mage managed to stop being a Ghoul (a feat only reachable by a storyteller fiat. For some reason mages need to do a Search to stop being ghoul on top of ceasing to drink the blood, even when they loose all ghoul powers normaly when they cease to drink-only the bad side remains) there's still the fact that your Avatar becomes blood adict, constantly fighting against the urge of drinking blood, a state that passes to it's next incarnations, forever.

                            That was a "fatal adiction" indeed. Too fatal.

                            To the point that the Black Hand writters decided to do less draconian rules for their V20 book because otherwise the Black Hand Ghoul mages wouldn't be very useful to the sect, would they.

                            V20 Black Hand book has the most up to date rules about Ghoul Mages, it doesn't even mention Blood Trachery as a source. It does state that , it doesn't present any other problem (well, appart of the blood bond, being adicted to a monsters blood, you know, the normal deal). It even states that Black Hand Ghouls subject themselves to cyclical "blood fast" from vitae so they can pursue enligthement for a time, advance a little, and then become ghouls again.

                            Also Mage Reventants have rules there. In Blood Treachery it was said that not only a Revenant Awakening would be rarer than a three headed Salubri, but that the Revenant's blood would Gilgul him in a few years). In Black Hand it's stated they can sidestep the need of "blood fasting", the vitae in their veins makes their advance a bit harder but far from impossible (they can advance Arete/Foundation up to their Humanity/Path rating -2, unless they have Path 10, that allows any rank)

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                            • #29
                              Originally posted by Monalfie View Post
                              Though, what you quoted does not say they cannot blood bound or embraced. The first point being that most are allergic, not all. And sometimes the embrace does damage to work, thus actual Abominations occurring.
                              Why did you just assume I was only considering that quote? There was a whole thread before me.
                              We're talking about what vampires with high occult lore can know about werewolves. Should they know about abominations? They could but most likely not, since they are exceedingly rare and more likely to be associated to an urban legend than reality. They would know, though, that attempting to embrace is going to kill them; they would also know that having them drink blood is going to have the blood vomited out and maybe cause a frenzy without generating a blood bond.

                              "Only a few can drink vitae without vomiting immediatly" could be, let's say, 1 Garou every five hundreds? Every thousand? Not really something you should be worried to encounter in your life anyway, especially since Garous are not many.

                              It looks like that book might be outdated in other ways, though. Given that it says 'mages can be ghouled normally' and I think it actually causes issues with their magic without specific interference.
                              Not quite... you can create mage ghouls normally and the fact that they're mages won't affect the success chance. They may just not be as good as mages after that, though, but it mostly depends on the rule you're willing to implement in your campaing. Blood Treachery was just explained, but in Mage Revised you'd only get static resonance by drinking vampire blood, no hassle. That said, of course it's outdated but, like, everything we're writing here is outdated, we're using it as a reference until we get a W20 rule (even if it's more likely to read it in Vampire 5th edition by now).

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                              • #30
                                Aleph I appreciate the elaboration. I know it was something like that. I need to recheck the Black Hand book, but I do recall the blood fast thing.

                                Originally posted by Maris Streck View Post
                                Why did you just assume I was only considering that quote? There was a whole thread before me.
                                Because that's literally what you specifically were referencing... Either way, the only major issue I took is that you extrapolated 'it is very hard to ghoul/blood bond/embrace Werewolves' to somehow equate to 'they know they can't do it'. Which are two different things.

                                We're talking about what vampires with high occult lore can know about werewolves. Should they know about abominations? They could but most likely not, since they are exceedingly rare and more likely to be associated to an urban legend than reality. They would know, though, that attempting to embrace is going to kill them; they would also know that having them drink blood is going to have the blood vomited out and maybe cause a frenzy without generating a blood bond.
                                The OP already mentioned the group knows about Garou, have high occult, and several centuries of studying supernatural beings. So I really do think they are likely to know embracing them is possible (which it is) and that some Garou aren't allergic (some aren't, by the text). They're probably more likely than most anyone to know by the sound of it.

                                "Only a few can drink vitae without vomiting immediatly" could be, let's say, 1 Garou every five hundreds? Every thousand? Not really something you should be worried to encounter in your life anyway, especially since Garous are not many.
                                Only a few can mean wildly different numbers. Without the Storyteller's Guide reference (if the other post can quote the relevant text, it'd be appreciated, since I don't have that book) it can be a varying percentage left up to the Storyteller. Assuming one wants to use the rule at all.

                                This isn't even getting into using something like Engaging the Vessel of Transference (these are thaumaturges) or injecting the blood.

                                Not quite... you can create mage ghouls normally and the fact that they're mages won't affect the success chance. They may just not be as good as mages after that, though, but it mostly depends on the rule you're willing to implement in your campaing. Blood Treachery was just explained, but in Mage Revised you'd only get static resonance by drinking vampire blood, no hassle.
                                Those aspects, ones with Aleph was kind enough to elaborate on, are precisely what I was referencing. So yes, that is indeed what I meant. I never said mages cannot be ghouled, merely that rules do exist elsewhere that their ghouling has side effects. Which was more of a reference to how outdated it was.

                                That said, of course it's outdated but, like, everything we're writing here is outdated, we're using it as a reference until we get a W20 rule (even if it's more likely to read it in Vampire 5th edition by now).
                                Unless it is a rule they don't want to add, in which case it'll never come up. Ghouls: Fatal Addiction is also a Vampire book. Given that I'm pretty sure V20 core and The Black Hand: A Guide to the Tal'Mahe'Ra (which I believe has the most recent Vampire look on Abominations) don't reference it, might not be quite that relevant anymore.
                                Last edited by Monalfie; 11-03-2017, 02:02 PM.

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