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Opinions on Rank 6

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  • Opinions on Rank 6

    A topic that has been poorly covered in my opinion is what it means to be and how one gets to rank 6. I'll admit I'm drawn to it because sometimes I want to play big legendary characters. Has anyone put much thought into how players could reach this Rank? Allowed players to reach it? Have you used any as NPCs? I'd be interested to read people's thoughts in the matter as the cannon is peppered with these high level beings, so the writers seemed to like the idea but they never went about giving much time to writing this all up.

    For myself, I was in one campaign where the GM felt that to become a rank 6, it meant you were in a Silver Pack at one point (I know this isn't cannon, but it's how he saw things/wanted to run things). Due to there being a decent write up on Silver Packs, he saw it as a way to model the use of Rank 6s in his game.

    So, anyone else up for sharing?

  • #2
    Not really something I'd ever allow a player to reach. Rank 6 is roughly as a 4th generation metuselah in your Vampire campaign... don't know, Karsh, Baba Yaga, Ur-Shulgi, Kementiri. And it really feels wrong to have a player handle the world that way. At that level of power and renown it's not even the same game, you'd better off playing Exalted.

    There's nothing wrong in having Albrecht show up at a certain point to reassign a lost Caern and stir some trouble up with people that don't want to lose it, but keep in mind that NPCs should never outshine PCs. Yes, a Rank 6 can maybe reshape a whole country overnight, that's why he's better suited to do that somewhere else, otherwise your game world is just you playing and players watching.

    I don't plan of having my players ever move higher than Rank 4, honestly.

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    • #3
      Never played/ran a game that long. The highest I've seen a PC get to is Rank 4. NPCs at Rank 5.

      I would imagine it would take several years to reach that point. I don't know how I feel about it personally. I know their powers are immense and I would cation against it. However if the player earns it, why not.

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      • #4
        THE GREATEST HONOR: LEGEND
        Truly exceptional Garou beyond Rank Five exist.
        These legends are given special rewards for their courage
        and service to Gaia, and their names are spoken
        with the same reverence that we have for Hercules,
        Miyamoto Musashi, and Joan of Arc.
        However, such advancement is beyond the mere
        acquisition of Renown. Legends are part of an exclusive
        group, and to qualify, a prospective Elder Garou
        must distinguish herself in an extraordinary fashion
        more than once. The attainment of the Legend Rank
        has nothing whatsoever to do with rules — it’s purely
        a matter of personal judgment on your part, and if
        there’s any doubt in your mind whether or not she
        has surpassed the mighty deeds of even the greatest
        of Elders, she hasn’t. Only when there’s absolutely no
        question of the character’s legendary status should you
        consider letting her strive for this Rank.
        When an Elder’s reputation spreads so far throughout
        the Garou Nation that it reaches the ears of existing
        Legends, one member takes it upon himself to travel
        to the caern of the Elder in question and investigate
        her worthiness. Once he has satisfied himself as to the
        candidate’s worthiness (or unworthiness), he contacts
        three other Legends to present his case. If he convinced
        them that the candidate is truly worthy, all four Legends
        arrive at the caern of the candidate and challenge the
        subject. If the candidate succeeds, she undergoes a special
        version of the Rite of Accomplishment performed in
        tandem by the Legends along with the Master of the
        Rite of the candidate’s caern (as a courtesy).

        Comment


        • #5
          I feel that Legendary characters should be the equivalent of the mythic heroes of our legends - Hercules, Jason, Achilles, and Odysseus. Legendary Garou should be those who made the first Pact with spirits, created the common rites still used today, secured the Incarna patronage of the tribes, slayed the Zmei, and did the other great acts which all Garou still remember today and tell their stories about. They might include the great war leader of the Get of Fenris who lead his tribe in the invasion of the British Isles and taking of the Fianna caerns there, or the first king of House Wyrmfoe when he established his family as its own dynasty and royal house.

          So I don't feel that there are many Legendary characters in the past few centuries, maybe not even a single one around today. I don't agree that there are several at any one point in time who are there to evaluate and confirm another entry into Legendary status (I understand Moirdryd is quoting from the W20 books, I just disagree with the book). These are the kind of people that don't even come once in a generation or even once in a lifetime. They are very rare now - the world is not like it was in the Early Times when the great heroes of the Garou accomplished great things. There might be one Legendary every few centuries although there might be certain important events where Garou rose to the occassion and several Legends were established at the same time, or near the same time period.

          To me, a Garou reaches Legendary status when the rest of the Nation treats him as such. That means his exploits are so well known and so grand, that other Garou around the world - regardless of tribe - start telling each other stories of that Garou's exploits. Athros and even other Elders constantly challenge him in order to prove their worth, but they fail - and eventually people stop trying because it is obvious what kind of Garou he is.

          So a PC has to have the exploits needed in order to accomplish this (which will take a long time as he does quests as an Elder), and then defeat a variety of challengers to assert his supremacy in his auspice field. At that point, once the ST believes he's done that, the character might receive some kind of vision from Gaia, tribal totem, or something else (this might also occur to some other Garou who is then quested to tell the prospective Legend what to do and be his witness) that effectively gives him the quest that once accomplished, confirms his Legendary status. At that point, he might begin asking to be taught the Rank 6 Gifts.

          The ST should have high standards and expectations for any PC to do this. But I think it is up to the PC to try and convince the ST that his character is accomplishing this. I think the PC should take the lead, with the ST collaborating with him and being very clear which of his ideas work or don't contribute to that.

          Comment


          • #6
            To be fair as the Apocalypse war grows the ability to become Legend grows likewise. There are fewer Legends in the world born out of peace than conflict for example. I see no issue with there being the Rank 6 characters as have been presented to us in the stories and background material for Werewolf. After all there are only a half dozen or so currently in the Nation and most of them didn't go through the Rite as described above but were basically recognized as such by the Celestines and so forth, the likes of Golgol Fangs First, The Margrave and Albrecht certainly being worthy of the acclamation.

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            • #7
              I actually have a rank 6 player and I can easily say that he is the only That ever deserved that status from feats no other character ever managed to achieve. He was mostly local hero of elder status but still he was highly active in fighting the wyrm and organizing his sept. That of course is not enough. The real thing came when elders from other countries that visited the sept heard imposible feats of heroism from that elder monster, like killing ancient wyrm horrors single handendly while warbands of garou failed to. The first active Rank 6 who took note of this heroe's achievements was Grimfang rebirthed and masqueraded as a freshly changed cub, spreading the word that was the seed of a new Legend.
              I even made 2 new rank 6 gifts for him.

              So yes, a rank 6 character passes to the domain of legends, epic stats, maybe above 5, epic unique or rare high point merits, and some Gifts with unique never seen before powers.
              Truth said many rank 6 gifts are weak for the rank they are supposed to be owned, but well you can always modify them to your liking.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Story Letter View Post
                I actually have a rank 6 player and I can easily say that he is the only That ever deserved that status from feats no other character ever managed to achieve. He was mostly local hero of elder status but still he was highly active in fighting the wyrm and organizing his sept. That of course is not enough. The real thing came when elders from other countries that visited the sept heard imposible feats of heroism from that elder monster, like killing ancient wyrm horrors single handendly while warbands of garou failed to. The first active Rank 6 who took note of this heroe's achievements was Grimfang rebirthed and masqueraded as a freshly changed cub, spreading the word that was the seed of a new Legend.
                I even made 2 new rank 6 gifts for him.

                So yes, a rank 6 character passes to the domain of legends, epic stats, maybe above 5, epic unique or rare high point merits, and some Gifts with unique never seen before powers.
                Truth said many rank 6 gifts are weak for the rank they are supposed to be owned, but well you can always modify them to your liking.

                I'd be curious to see what your write up was. I know the idea is unpopular for some, but its something I've always been curious about. For how people talk about the rank, and what it takes to earn it, I feel like there are a lot of Rank 6 characters in cannon (Black Tooth, Albrecht, Margrave, Grim Fang, Golgol, Cries in the Wind...am I missing any?).

                Comment


                • #9
                  I like to try several play styles, so though most of the time I prefer to stick to low-ranking Garou, and even cubs, I had also my share of elder's games, and on some of them I got PCs on Rank 6.

                  The first thing, already pointed out, is that most Rank 6 Gifts are terribly written. Albrecht's Renew the Cycle is unusable in RAW, just to name one.

                  But lets see... the cannon answer was presented, but as most I feel it ludicrous. Not only it makes it seems that a number of Legends at a time is not only common, but even expected. It makes it seems that the Legendary heroes form a kind of closed club that set aside all their differences to get along and talk about how they are bad-asses. The cannon Legends are many, and though I can see the point on most of them, it is kind of lame to make so much as, well, cannon.

                  For a PC to get to Legend, I would either require a helluva lot of accomplishments... or just assume this is the intended power level of the story at some point. I strongly endorse the later. You never should let a player get to Legend without intending it for your game. And be sure that the players are either to be all Legends, or be in agreement with the result. A good start for making it during the game would be for the group as a whole act as jury over the matter, and the rank-up occurring only at an unanimous agreement. If you can't convince a fellow player that you do deserve it, then you probably don't.


                  Sorry if I seem too straightforward, or if I don't get you. Autism isn't a forgiving condition.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Story Letter View Post
                    So yes, a rank 6 character passes to the domain of legends, epic stats, maybe above 5, epic unique or rare high point merits, and some Gifts with unique never seen before powers.
                    Truth said many rank 6 gifts are weak for the rank they are supposed to be owned, but well you can always modify them to your liking.
                    This makes quite obvious that you're running a powerplay campaign. By all means have fun, but it's really not a style I can endorse and as far as I'm concerned it's not even roleplay.

                    Originally posted by Black Fox View Post
                    So I don't feel that there are many Legendary characters in the past few centuries, maybe not even a single one around today.
                    I pretty much share your vision.
                    I think that canon-wise Albrecht is supposed to be Rank 6 after his retrieval of the Silver Crown, just like Margrave Konietzko and Zhyzhak. I'm unaware of other Legends of the Garou around the world but they're probably less than a dozen in total.

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Maris Streck View Post

                      This makes quite obvious that you're running a powerplay campaign. By all means have fun, but it's really not a style I can endorse and as far as I'm concerned it's not even roleplay.
                      Is this style of response really needed though? You can disagree and prefer lower powered games, but honestly I don't see how that makes your style better then others.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Rank 6 is something you're not going to see in most games. IIRC until Revised the only character to have a Rank 6 listing was Golgol Fangs First. They are the rarest of the rare and you only get there through acknowledgment of other living Legends of the Garou or through equal similar proclamations.

                        Given that the most important characters in a chronicle are your players characters it's entirely possible that they may well strive to become Legends and one or two might even make it. Of course Rank 5 is the target most people go for and many may not ever make it past Adren but it's like higher rank gifts and Grand Klaives and so forth, you can restrict as you see fit but ultimately they were put in there for a PC to use. I am in the process in fact of setting up a new chronicle and my p[layers asked "What Tribe, Fetish, Camp restrictions" to my response of "This time folks, as long as it's from the Chargen chapter of W20, create as you want". I;ve a mix of very old hands and one or two shiny newbies to Werewolf and they're all excited on having some free reign.

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                        • #13
                          Well 1st ed also had Grimfang a Silver Fang and Cries in the Wind for Rank 6. So 1st ed had 3 already listed specifically.

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                          • #14
                            [QUOTE=

                            Given that the most important characters in a chronicle are your players characters it's entirely possible that they may well strive to become Legends and one or two might even make it. Of course Rank 5 is the target most people go for and many may not ever make it past Adren but it's like higher rank gifts and Grand Klaives and so forth, you can restrict as you see fit but ultimately they were put in there for a PC to use. [/QUOTE]

                            This is my thoughts right here. This is stuff provided by the writers of the setting. Someone using these power levels isn't necessarily wrong. You may not prefer it which is fine, you may not allow it in your games, again fine. I just think its wrong to say that those who use it are "not role playing" or not playing Werewolf the Apocalypse correctly.
                            Last edited by CeltSPZ; 11-07-2017, 11:11 PM.

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by CeltSPZ View Post
                              Is this style of response really needed though? You can disagree and prefer lower powered games, but honestly I don't see how that makes your style better then others.
                              I see no reason to hide my thoughts on role playing on a role playing forum. It's not like I insulted anyone.
                              As far as entertainment goes there is no "right" thing to like; still, we have shows for kids and shows for adults, well-written plots and lousy scripts. Saying that rank 6 gifts are underpowered means running a show for kids, and adding that a player became rank 6 in that context probably also means lousy script (I might be wrong, of course).
                              But people can still enjoy a Bleach tankobon even if no one in his sane mind would ever compare it to Shakespeare, so why is there an issue if I mislike it?

                              Also, my style is better because it's mine. :3
                              Last edited by Maris Streck; 11-07-2017, 11:37 PM.

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