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  • Originally posted by Beckett View Post
    I am litetally countries and continents from my books, but pretty sure the honest answer is WtA 1st Ed, 2nd Ed, Revised, and W20.
    What a funny thing to say. As it turns out, I have all of those on hand, and having read through them, you can have an Engie for your troubles. I even read through the description of the Sept of Bygone Visions, and there was no mention of Amazon Werewolf Women in the Mood there, either. The earliest Player's Guide also makes no mention of it, nor do the other two editions' players guides.

    (You'd think that someone would have noticed something like that over the past 26 years or so and brought it to someone's attention. Never heard any mentions of it on the really, really, really old forums on through the modern ones, though, so I have no clue where you're getting it from other than Rage: Warriors of the Apocalypse, the details of which, again, have basically been retconned out.)

    I am not sure if it is what you mean, but it sort of sounds like you are suggesting Black Fury male Kinfolk would rather have sex with Lupis Black Furies than deal with the rest of the Tribe's BS here. I kind of doubt that is what you mean, though, so could you rephrase for clarity?
    Human-born Black Furies, which means that they are Garou women going for male wolves.

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    • Originally posted by Beckett View Post

      I believe that restricting conversations to just W20, (or whatever version is appropriate), is far worse in confussing things, both because it ignors facts, history, and evidence (which could be just because somene is mot aware of it) and because to be honest, the 20th Ed books are not all out yet. Who knows what could change, or BE CHANGED in whatever new books come.

      Im not trying to be a jerk, but by your own rational, Changing Ways, a published(ish) book has set much of these complaints in stone. But also remember thst the 20th editions are meant firstly to be compendiums of all the previous material, and Onyx Path suggested from the beginning going back to the older materials for more information on subjects not fully covered.
      In a game that deals with so many different takes, real life cultures that older editions messed up badly and 20+ years of headcanons, it is pretty hard to discuss anything without at least some sort of a baseline to refer to. I like a lot of the older books, note.But when some say that garou are rited on the same day they Change and others say it can much longer, it can be hard to really have a good discussion on things relating to cubs.

      I mean, yeah. The book is published, it will be used. If we get lucky, parts will be agreed to be ignored, like with Children of Gaia revised. But they still exist in the setting now.


      My gallery.

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      • Originally posted by Beckett View Post

        So, your collection does not have an active Black Fury mass murdering men, (150 at least I think), with the Totem's express blessing?

        Or contain a Rite to restore the ability to have children that is only used on women, but withheld from men.

        Or another that literally causes a penis to shrivel and rot due to sleeping around, but the Black Furies would never suggest a woman have multiple partners.
        None of these fit what you were talking about. Don't try to shift goalposts.

        I also find the views from Way of the Wolf rather interesting. Can anyone look that up for me, just in case Im off here. Specifically page 32. Not really sure in what other sense "force" can mean here. But wait... is this in a 1st ed book?
        Also a book that doesn't know what wild wolfpacks are actually like. The author was basically applying a prisoner hierarchy to the entire species, so I wouldn't be so inclined to take what the book has to say about this as the way things are. Also, they still weren't kidnapping human men there, so that's another attempt at shifting the goalposts.

        Not trying to be an ass here, but maybe the idea you and others have and had is not exactly 100% correct.
        Maybe the idea you have is base off of one passage in a book that doesn't even know what it's talking about and another in a signature character book that made so little sense that it was retconned, and everyone else read all of the other books that actually form the setting of the game. Which is why we're looking at you like you grew a second head.
        Last edited by Saur Ops Specialist; 01-12-2018, 10:08 PM.

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        • It says something about how people see the tribes,when people have not tried to dispute the Red Talon part at all, but Fury gets combated.


          My gallery.

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          • Originally posted by Ana Mizuki View Post
            It says something about how people see the tribes,when people have not tried to dispute the Red Talon part at all, but Fury gets combated.
            I think both concepts are incredible stupid. First Black Fury dont have male Gauru in their ranks besides metis and Red Talon dont have humans in their ranks.

            Now as for reproduction that seems incredibly non sustainable. Oh sure the black furies would risk war with any tribe they kidnap and force members of (same with the Red talons) when they can simply ask or negotiate because.....reasons.

            Why would they risk that amount of bad blood between the tribes. At the very least when they give away their male Garou to the Children of Gaia they could get some breeding partners in return for the deal at minimum.

            Not even touching the fact that a couple of female lupus Garou could produce baby at alarming rate with barely any risk to their health with regeneration. Why would they risk it for human garou? When they can just get the wolf kin, all tribes are mostly desperate to get more Wolf kinfolks.
            Last edited by LokiRavenSpeak; 01-13-2018, 02:01 AM.

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            • Originally posted by Saur Ops Specialist View Post

              None of these fit what you were talking about. Don't try to shift goalposts.
              Originally posted by Ana Mizuki View Post
              In a game that deals with so many different takes, real life cultures that older editions messed up badly and 20+ years of headcanons, it is pretty hard to discuss anything without at least some sort of a baseline to refer to. I like a lot of the older books, note.

              I mean, yeah. The book is published, it will be used.
              No, they fit that the tribe is not what you and others said. But that is fine. I dont have my books with me, and I doubt at this point any other amount of proof is really going to change anyone's minds once set. Trying to call parts you don't like "head canon" is pretty disingenuous, as is claims of shifting goal posts away from facts that you (in the general sense) do not like or disprove your side, and it is things like that which cause issues with discussion. Even if you want your baseline to be W20 only, the problem still remains that such is in that edition.

              But, it is also pretty off topic for the topic of this book.
              Last edited by Beckett; 01-13-2018, 06:08 AM.

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              • Originally posted by Beckett View Post


                No, they fit that the tribe is not what you and others said.
                We said that they don't do that weird shit with kin, and that they don't go around randomly kidnapping and raping men. Which they don't. We know that they do go around engaging in very harsh vigilantism, and that they used to have a contingent that would euthanize their male children, but the latter is probably more out of fashion than Lookshy leaving disabled infants out to die in Exalted's present day.

                But that is fine. I dont have my books with me, and I doubt at this point any other amount of proof is really going to change anyone's minds once set.
                It's fine, we do have the books, as demonstrated above.

                Trying to call parts you don't like "head canon" is pretty disingenuous, as is claims of shifting goal posts away from facts that you (in the general sense) do not like or disprove your side, and it is things like that which cause issues with discussion. Even if you want your baseline to be W20 only, the problem still remains that such is in that edition.
                No, it doesn't. Posts have already demonstrated this with quotes from the book. If you can't quote from the books, you look quite terrible, and if you keep insisting otherwise.when the rest of us are around our books, you look like you're just obstinately trolling.

                But, it is also pretty off topic for the topic of this book.
                No, it has a lot of bearing on the topic. NuWW is trying to destroy the baseline of the game for the majority of the time that it was published. It, for various reasons, does not sit well with a number of people in this thread.

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                • At this point, I am more worried why people are so damn obsessed with Furies raping men for breeding. I get that a lot of people want the setting to be very dark, but kinfolk exist and are willing to mate with them -according to the books-. That, and WtA's draw is also that the garou have a point at parts. Furies especially are written to combat a very real thing even in our world, even if both they and their IRL inspiration at times do mess up. Portraying them as slavering beasts raping men and hating them with insane passion doesn't make the setting better, it takes away the nuance the tribe has.

                  Plus, they and Red Talons being often made into these edge cases that are without nuance is getting tiring.


                  My gallery.

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                  • Originally posted by Ana Mizuki View Post
                    At this point, I am more worried why people are so damn obsessed with Furies raping men for breeding. I get that a lot of people want the setting to be very dark, but kinfolk exist and are willing to mate with them -according to the books-. That, and WtA's draw is also that the garou have a point at parts. Furies especially are written to combat a very real thing even in our world, even if both they and their IRL inspiration at times do mess up. Portraying them as slavering beasts raping men and hating them with insane passion doesn't make the setting better, it takes away the nuance the tribe has.

                    Plus, they and Red Talons being often made into these edge cases that are without nuance is getting tiring.
                    The people arguing that this is typical of the Furies don’t understand the tribe at all and usually have a chip on their shoulder in my experience. Mention the tribe around a group and it’s usually met with “I hate the Black Furies.” When you ask why it’s always “they murder all their male children and are man hating rapists who want to enslave or kill all men!” No, just no.
                    I find those people almost always have issues with the concept of feminism and don’t realize that seeking equality for women is not the same as wanting the subjugation of men.

                    Three women in my immediate family have been the victims of rape. One was almost murdered during the experience and the cops and doctors had the audacity to ask her if she enjoyed it. In two of those cases the rapist was never caught or saw jail. In the third I don’t know because she was so traumatized that it fundamentally changed her personality and she refuses to talk about it and I don’t pry.

                    The Black Furies serve a real and fundamental purpose as a tribe in the setting and as a power fantasy. The idea of a group of avenging women who find rapists, murderers, and child abusers and subject them to justice is a great escape. It makes the WoD less dark than our own in that respect because for most of the abused there is no justice. The monsters who hurt other people less powerful than themselves are seldom punished for it.

                    Look at the recent #MeToo movement where women (and some men) are coming out of the woodwork to show just how pervasive this abuse is.

                    In the WoD things are usually crappier than our own world and in reality, things are incredibly shitty for women. Imagine how much worse it is in the WoD. The Garou are rage filled monsters, it’s not difficult to imagine why the Black Furies seek out such harsh and violent solutions to many of the problems facing women.


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                    • Originally posted by Lunar Falcon View Post
                      I find those people almost always have issues with the concept of feminism and don’t realize that seeking equality for women is not the same as wanting the subjugation of men.
                      Feminism and equality are quite two different things. Modern feminists, or at least as I've known them, are mostly notorious for harassing, shaming and bullying whoever dares to object with their ideas, especially if male -and that's somewhat funny since half of their battles are supposed to be against this kind of thing. So I really need little effort to imagine a self-righteous and hypocrite behaviour attached to half of the Black Furies tribe.
                      Then again, there is some difference between Feminism and Black Furies too.

                      Also, while I may be sympathetic to your family situation I'd ask you to not vent out this kind of things in a gaming forum, or at least not in a gaming thread. Personal issues and political ideas really make the whole argument awkward to debate any further since every objection may now feel like an insensitive personal attack against your experience.

                      It says something about how people see the tribes,when people have not tried to dispute the Red Talon part at all, but Fury gets combated.
                      I just think that it's super easy to see how the homid Talon part makes no sense. Furies can be a bit more nuanced.

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                      • Originally posted by Maris Streck View Post

                        Feminism and equality are quite two different things. Modern feminists, or at least as I've known them, are mostly notorious for harassing, shaming and bullying whoever dares to object with their ideas, especially if male -and that's somewhat funny since half of their battles are supposed to be against this kind of thing. So I really need little effort to imagine a self-righteous and hypocrite behaviour attached to half of the Black Furies tribe.
                        Then again, there is some difference between Feminism and Black Furies too.

                        Also, while I may be sympathetic to your family situation I'd ask you to not vent out this kind of things in a gaming forum, or at least not in a gaming thread. Personal issues and political ideas really make the whole argument awkward to debate any further since every objection may now feel like an insensitive personal attack against your experience.
                        As the saying goes, the responses to feminism invariably end up justifying the continued need for feminism.

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                        • Originally posted by Saur Ops Specialist View Post

                          As the saying goes, the responses to feminism invariably end up justifying the continued need for feminism.
                          He proved my point exactly.


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                          • Originally posted by Lunar Falcon View Post
                            He proved my point exactly.
                            And your inability to see such extremisms attached to the Furies does not depend on a personal rose-coloured vision of the tribe? I mean, you even have a BF avatar, it's pretty clear that your mind canon idolizes them. Even in W20 (where the Furies don't look so harsh and fanatics like they were in 2nd ed) it's said that they can accept equality at best - meaning that the most open and tolerant of them will treat men as equals while the rest of the tribe won't be so nice.

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                            • Originally posted by Maris Streck View Post

                              And your inability to see such extremisms attached to the Furies does not depend on a personal rose-coloured vision of the tribe? I mean, you even have a BF avatar, it's pretty clear that your mind canon idolizes them. Even in W20 (where the Furies don't look so harsh and fanatics like they were in 2nd ed) it's said that they can accept equality at best - meaning that the most open and tolerant of them will treat men as equals while the rest of the tribe won't be so nice.
                              Read the tribe book. It states multiple times throughout that the main purpose of the tribe is to serve as a force for vengeance. There are three paragraphs that state that since the early 90’s women from other tribes have joined and those are the ones more concerned with being the stereotypical Amazonian warrior-women. Even then it states they are more interested in showing that they are just as badass as men and not interested in the true role of the tribe. Still nothing about enslaving or subjugating men. In fact, I really can’t find anything in this book that supports your view of the tribe.

                              Page 55 goes into additional laws the Furies follow that are just as important as the Litany. Suffer no abuse to woman. Remember your parents: to quote the text, “Unless I missed a major theological event, there haven’t been any immaculate conceptions recently. That means you were born of a man and a woman. No matter your personal feelings on men, they are and have always been one half of the equation. A man is not evil simply by the don’t of his sex; to believe so is no better than calling women ‘the weaker sex.’”
                              Train the weak; protect the helpless, and keep the Wyld places pure.

                              Sure there are probably rabid man hating members of the Black Furies, but are they a majority or even super common? Not as written in the tribe book, or even the rest of the source material from Revised through W20.

                              There is a single bogey man Fury referenced in the book as “the Manslayer” who has torn apart even men whose worst crimes seem to have been visiting a strip club. They are presented as being antithetical to the tribe and its purpose, an abomination to be found and stopped and which many tribe members are trying to hunt down. Definitely not presented as a typical Fury and is a perversion of what they are supposed to stand for.


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                              • Originally posted by Lunar Falcon View Post
                                Still nothing about enslaving or subjugating men. In fact, I really can’t find anything in this book that supports your view of the tribe.
                                No one is speaking about enslaving (the issue was raping kinfolks out of necessity, not making an harem of sex slaves) and no one says it's the majority of the tribe. I just think it's an "it might happen", opposed to the "nfw" when I hear of Talons mating with humans.

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