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  • Originally posted by Saur Ops Specialist View Post
    And we know this, but the standpoint of "not all feminists are perfect moral actors, so the entire idea of feminism is void" is junk, and there's a vast gulf between "practices the tribe endorses" and forcing others to mate. The Black Furies are probably the tribe keenest to not do this, given that it's basically against their entire ethos and clashes with all of their typical totems.
    But W20, as previously quoted, says that many of them (as I get it from the grammar in the entry, from a quarter to half of the Tribe) passionatly hate men and, while it may not be an officially endorsed behaviour, I have no issue picturing that consistent minority using men for reproduction when needed and discarding them afterward. Yes, they could use their own kins or seduce some others, but if you factor in both the idea that they hate men (and look for the least possible emotional involvment) and circumstances (they may have no availlable or willing kinfolk) then maybe the forced mating is not the weirdest of the ideas.
    I mean, in Velvet Shadow there's even a part saying that the Furies would kill every human emanation in their Tribal Homeland if only Pegasus allowed it.

    And speaking of Pegasus, while it may be tolerant about the Homelands it's also not a spirit that harbors any love for men. In Revised Umbra it's implied that Pegasus is female and hates Bellerophon for mistreating her, and I think that in some other supplement I can't remember it's said that Pegasus hates Bellerophon for how he abandoned his wife after using her - yea, they're kinda contraddicting but I can't really do much about it. So, can a man-hating spirit turn a blind eye over some male mistreatment?

    I'm not a BF expert anyway so I can surely accept to be wrong, but as far as I've read it looks like it can be a rare but tolerated custom.

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    • Originally posted by Maris Streck View Post

      But W20, as previously quoted, says that many of them (as I get it from the grammar in the entry, from a quarter to half of the Tribe) passionatly hate men
      Uh.....thats the exact opposite of what the passage you quoted says.....

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      • Originally posted by Maris Streck View Post

        But W20, as previously quoted, says that many of them (as I get it from the grammar in the entry, from a quarter to half of the Tribe) passionatly hate men and, while it may not be an officially endorsed behaviour, I have no issue picturing that consistent minority using men for reproduction when needed and discarding them afterward. Yes, they could use their own kins or seduce some others, but if you factor in both the idea that they hate men (and look for the least possible emotional involvment) and circumstances (they may have no availlable or willing kinfolk) then maybe the forced mating is not the weirdest of the ideas.

        --------------

        I'm not a BF expert anyway so I can surely accept to be wrong, but as far as I've read it looks like it can be a rare but tolerated custom.
        As someone with a female body and who was raised female, if I well and truly hated men so much that a consensual sexual encounter would be impossible for me to even consider... I'd just not bother with the penis. Like, seriously, if the options are no sex with men and stalking and raping a man to get children, I'd rather stick with women. Besides, let us remember that Furies consider the ability to create life sacred and that rape is a perversion of that. All of that, plus the fact that garou nation places a huge heap of expectations for you based on your ancestors.

        Why the heck would Furies rape to reproduce, when it would risk the child being tainted? Besides, where garou are, there are kinfolk. If there isn't male kinfolk nearby, I'm sure one can be found.


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        • Originally posted by Damian May View Post
          Uh.....thats the exact opposite of what the passage you quoted says.....
          Nnno? Look, I'll try to not be unbearable here, but...

          "The tribe holds that women are worthy of respect, honor, sometimes even veneration. Though no Black Fury will suffer the hand of a man acting as master or tyrant, the tribe isn’t united by active misandry. Certainly some Furies will never forget or forgive. But others are willing to accept men as partners, helpmates, lovers, equals — but nothing more than equals."

          "The tribe isn't united by active misandry". So there's misandry but it's not a requisite to be part of the tribe.
          "SOME will never forget or forgive, but OTHERS are willing to accept". It's not using "many", "the vast majority", "mostly everyone", both words are vague and referring to small groups. As it's written, this line transmits the idea that both positions are advocated in the Furies without a consensus large enough to make either of them dominant; it also seems to imply that the accepting group is slightly wider than the intolerant one.

          How is it the opposite of saying that many of them "passionately hate men"? It's written right there, they're not the majority but there are nevertheless a lot of man-hating Furies.

          As someone with a female body and who was raised female, if I well and truly hated men so much that a consensual sexual encounter would be impossible for me to even consider... I'd just not bother with the penis. Like, seriously, if the options are no sex with men and stalking and raping a man to get children, I'd rather stick with women.
          You don't have the luxury, you need to breed and create more warriors. Sex is not recreational, it's a duty.

          Why the heck would Furies rape to reproduce, when it would risk the child being tainted? Besides, where garou are, there are kinfolk. If there isn't male kinfolk nearby, I'm sure one can be found.
          Raping shouldn't really stir the Wyrm more than killing. If there's any doubt about the taint they still have a rite to fix that (and the mother will probably undergo several cleansings anyway because of combat). Also, the question is not "are there willing and availlable male kinfolks around?", but "if there are no willing or availlable kinfolks, would they take them by force?"

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          • Originally posted by Maris Streck View Post
            You don't have the luxury, you need to breed and create more warriors. Sex is not recreational, it's a duty.
            Yes and no? Sure, there is a expectation for Garou to mate and produce offspring but also a pregnant Garou remove a warrior from the front lines so the nation doesnt expect female Garou to produce babies all the time whenever she can.

            Originally posted by Maris Streck View Post
            Raping shouldn't really stir the Wyrm more than killing. If there's any doubt about the taint they still have a rite to fix that (and the mother will probably undergo several cleansings anyway because of combat). Also, the question is not "are there willing and availlable male kinfolks around?", but "if there are no willing or availlable kinfolks, would they take them by force?"
            Considering that kinfolk and human outnumber Garou by....a lot. Yes there is plenty of options. As I said before take kinfolks "by force" is such a blunder on a political level that is not worth it.

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            • Originally posted by Maris Streck View Post
              You don't have the luxury, you need to breed and create more warriors. Sex is not recreational, it's a duty.
              Yes, a duty that your whole tribe holds sacred and every member is categorized by it. But that doesn't mean every member is expected to bear children, after all, you can have maidens and crones as babysitters for your children so you can go fight your war. This sacredness also means that you would be very careful who the father would be, since you'd want your child to be strong and healthy. There is a heck a lot of planning and thinking among the Furies to become a mother, for it to be something forced upon a garou hating men so much they can't deal with having sex with one. Or, hey, maybe they have members who were hurt by men so badly they literally cannot do it lest they risk panic attacks. Furies are the tribe handling those issues, after all.

              Originally posted by Maris Streck View Post
              Raping shouldn't really stir the Wyrm more than killing. If there's any doubt about the taint they still have a rite to fix that (and the mother will probably undergo several cleansings anyway because of combat). Also, the question is not "are there willing and availlable male kinfolks around?", but "if there are no willing or availlable kinfolks, would they take them by force?"
              Killing is natural, killing is part of life. Raping is forcing oneself on another through violence, it being so traumatic that it almost always leaves mental scars. That, to me, is the definition of Wyrmy.

              Plus, once again, I hardly think the issue of willing kinfolk is that huge among the Furies. At worst, the male might just be a sperm donor. Besides, every single kinfolk male is related to another Fury. Which means forcing oneself upon them would end up in a challenge if not a punishment rite.


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              • We really reached the point where we have to say clearly that rape is an action that belongs to the Wyrm?

                And that, even while ignoring everything else (why should we, but hey, discussions on certain topics are weird sometimes), to taint the act of creation, something that's both literally and symbolically resonant with the Wyld, with such an awfully Wyrmish act is a huge no-no for all Garou Tribes under several aspects and even more so for one that's so devoted to the Wyld?

                Come on everyone, common sense should matter more than a sentence in a couple of books that other books ignore or actually retcon.
                Last edited by Cinder; 01-16-2018, 12:38 PM.


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                • Originally posted by Ana Mizuki View Post
                  Killing is natural, killing is part of life. Raping is forcing oneself on another through violence, it being so traumatic that it almost always leaves mental scars.
                  You do realise that "killing" is forcing oneself on another through violence too, with the difference that the victim is not even left alive? That knife stabbing leaves actual physical scars other than the psychological ones and even if you survive your body is permanently damaged? Good, because you almost seemed to imply that murder wasn't such a big deal.

                  Did you know that even forced sex is a natural part of life, that the vast majority of the animals out there reproduce through harassing and/or overpowering the females? That some frogs just jump on the back of a female until she gets tired and submits, or bed bugs just stab the females (or even other males. Or humans, or anything really...) through the abdomen to inject the sperm? Did you know that dolphins kill and rape for fun and they even found a human corpse with broken bones in a cave and the autopsy linked the wounds to dolphins that raped it? Or that sea otters have been seen raping baby seals to death?
                  Even during wolves' sex, that have surprisingly "romantic" relationships for the average of the animal world, the male just keep on going even when the female tries to toss them away. Just peek at this wikipedia page.

                  I really don't want to write a treaty on ethics and animal behaviour on a gaming forum but come on, the reasons we condemn forced sex and murder have nothing to do with how natural they are. So, please, let's stick to manuals and common sense without bringing in distorted visions of how life works.
                  Last edited by Maris Streck; 01-16-2018, 11:34 AM.

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                  • Yeah, I think its fair to say that Maris has a very different take on things than the rest of us and the authors and I think I'll leave him to it. Have a nice discussion guys.

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                    • It's true that there's a lot of ugly things in animal behavior, and that looking to the natural world is a terrible way to determine what is and is not of the Wyrm. But that's just because there are better ways of doing so. Werewolf is a game about spiritual corruption and what matters is what effects actions have on the world and its inhabitants. That which creates massive amounts of pain, despair, and corruption tend to foster and attract all sorts of Wyrm spirits. It doesn't matter that dolphins isolate and Stockholm each other, doing the same thing to humans clearly sets up the kind of misery the Wyrm's forces thrive on.

                      Which is not to say that savagely killing or murdering people can't strengthen the Wyrm. That can and should be something the Garou have to face. But death is as much a part of Balance Wyrm as it is of Corrupter Wyrm, it is not inherent to latter the way pain and degradation are.


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                      • Originally posted by Ramnesis View Post
                        That which creates massive amounts of pain, despair, and corruption tend to foster and attract all sorts of Wyrm spirits. It doesn't matter that dolphins isolate and Stockholm each other, doing the same thing to humans clearly sets up the kind of misery the Wyrm's forces thrive on.
                        Bur of course. It's mostly a matter of how and why. Killing to eat is part of the Gaian balance, killing for fun a whole different world. "Killing" for bloodlust is Wyrm-ish (corrupted), even if you kill a servant of the Wyrm. Killing also causes sadness and desperation on the ones that loved him, strengthening their dark emotions and making the Wyrm stronger.

                        I only wanted to correct Ana Mizuki's idea of "natural", not advocating that since they're natural they don't have Wyrm taint. Was that unclear?

                        Yeah, I think its fair to say that Maris has a very different take on things than the rest of us and the authors and I think I'll leave him to it.
                        I think you just misinterpreted both me and the authors...

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                        • Originally posted by Maris Streck View Post

                          Bur of course. It's mostly a matter of how and why. Killing to eat is part of the Gaian balance, killing for fun a whole different world. "Killing" for bloodlust is Wyrm-ish (corrupted), even if you kill a servant of the Wyrm.
                          Possibly not on that last one, since you could be trying to channel your monstrosity to better ends. We're not Batman even if we're playing Camazotz, and murdering a murderer isn't a guaranteed net wash because you killed someone. Play your cards right, and you could end up lowering the count significantly even without committing suicide.

                          Killing also causes sadness and desperation on the ones that loved him, strengthening their dark emotions and making the Wyrm stronger.
                          Violence is a quick solution that escalates the situation. Generally, it's the consequences that get you before anything like taint does.

                          I only wanted to correct Ana Mizuki's idea of "natural", not advocating that since they're natural they don't have Wyrm taint. Was that unclear?
                          I don't trust your interpretation of "natural"...

                          I think you just misinterpreted both me and the authors...
                          ...or of the authors of the past material. I was hanging around the really old forums from 1996 on. The developer at the time strongly eschewed the kind of crap that you're trying to pass off from the line. This is not to say that the Garou were not monstrous during his tenure, as they still had a long saga of mistakes, but W:tA was not and is not the kind of game that you're trying to sell it as. In order to actually accomplish this, you'd have to go along with WW and destroy the entirety of the prior continuity, as they are doing, and if you approve of that, you're not really in good company here. It's not unlike if Disney erased the entirety of Star Wars canon, rather than just the expanded universe novels, and made TFA for a double-trilogy that never happened and which lacked any of the charm or good directions of the material that it took out.

                          You will also note that Disney did not do that, because it would have been a very bad move for business. Consider, then, the direction of nuWW, and where it might be headed...

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                          • Maris, you are equating a group of women hating men with an established culture of rape and murder for breeding. If these Furies hate men, why would they even care to have sex to breed with them at all? Even if they need to breed, if they are in that state where they cannot stand men, their tribe would not actually consider them Mothers until they'd found someone they can stand to be with.

                            Besides, if we want to look what the Furies were in the 1st ed when everyone was at their worst, here is what it said about Furies;

                            Originally posted by WtA core 1, p.110
                            The Black Furies are composed almost entirely of female
                            Garou, though thereare a few male metis members of thetribe,
                            r
                            esulting from a Fury's illicit mating with a Garou of another
                            tribe.Other than these metis, they give away any male child
                            to other tribes.The Black Furies originally hailed from Greece,
                            where they were the priestesses of Artemis, the moon goddess
                            who was their representation of Luna.
                            The Furies are a reclusive tribe, and prefer to remain deep in
                            the wilderness. Of all the tribes they are most adamant in the
                            defense of the few Wyld sites and creatures leftin the world,and
                            are rumored to aid and be aided by some of these mythical
                            creatures from time to time.
                            The Black Furies, due to their unrelenting defense of the
                            Wyld areas, have long been appointed the punishers and
                            avengers of the Garou, responsible for tracking down and
                            destroying the greatest evils. This has spawned an intense
                            rivalry with the Get of Fenris; the two tribes despise each other
                            and will bicker and compete forstatus constantly.
                            Not one peep of man hate there. I think that is important to remember, Furies were exclusively female, but they weren't man-haters. They just followed a tradition of priestesses and such to be mono-gender. Like the mythical Furies.
                            This isn't to say this is the only way the tribe can be, but the raging man-hate came much later.


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                            • ...incidentally, updated PDF of Changing Ways is now up.

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                              • Originally posted by Changing Ways, p.89-90
                                Rumors abound of some Black Furies finding those male homids sent to other tribes to breed with lupus Kinfolk, and of Red Talons kidnapping homids of other tribes to breed with the Talons’ wolf-Kin.
                                Well, at least the Fury Males was fixed.


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