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  • #31
    Originally posted by Ana Mizuki View Post
    Hispothesis Damn, hit all the parts I had issue with as well.
    Haha thanks, it's good to not be alone!

    My update: I'm into the pack chapter. My kingdom to just find-and-replace this document, you can even tell that's what they did themselves because there are multiple references to "an zedakh".
    Last edited by Hispothesis; 12-21-2017, 09:14 PM. Reason: I spoke too soon. Multiple references.


    The early bird catches the Wyrm.

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    • #32
      I’ve heard there’s anti-Vaxxer stuff in this book as well


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      • #33
        Originally posted by The young man in the cafe View Post
        I’ve heard there’s anti-Vaxxer stuff in this book as well
        I did a quick search of the file, there's a blip in the early section about Garou healing:

        "While some urban Garou consider human medicines worth the risk, the clear majority see all modern medicines as marked by the Wyrm or Weaver. Hard-line septs even forbid their Kinfolk from receiving vaccinations. To these werewolves, it’s worth the possibility of an outbreak to ensure that a Garou child is born without taint."

        My eyes kind of skated over that one and I immediately forgot about it, so good catch. The sad part is it's the World of Darkness, though, so "big pharma is out to get you!" isn't a totally unreasonable stance for Garou. Depending on how your ST runs the setting, anyway.


        The early bird catches the Wyrm.

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        • #34
          That doesn’t read to me like it’s arguing they’re right to hold such views, generally the attitudes of “hardline” septs generally come off as backwards and misguided in canon.


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          • #35
            Originally posted by glamourweaver View Post
            My problem with this statement is its underselling how reactionary they are. It's presenting them as only reactionary to values that went global in the 18th and 19th centuries or so. As opposed to reactionary with the values of historic cultures that had no qualms whatsoever about homosexual behavior and strong recognition of people who crossed out of gender binaries.
            Homosexuality should not be an issue unless you actually try to have sex with other people of the same sex (so it's not what you are, it's how you behave) and the issue is the same of protected sex and usually tied to the Litany: you have a duty to breed as much as possible, society won't allow any sex with sterile mates. As I previously said bone Gnawers may have it better, yet they still probably need to keep it secret.

            The issue I see with transgender people, instead, is not with the gender/sexuality by itself but something more on the line of "how Gaia made you". It's considered highly shameful to even change one own's auspice, why should changing sex be any different? Also, can they even do that? I'd assume that Garou regeneration nullifies any kind of surgical change to the body and even shapeshifting gifts or supernatural meaning of sex-change (Awakened Life magick) can't provide fertility - and here we are back to the breeding issue.


            But that question should really be easily settled by who Pegasus is willing to accept into the Tribe. If Pegasus accepts trans women into the Tribe, the transphobic members don't have a leg to stand on. Certainly the Greek Myth of Sypretes is precedent for someone who "became" a woman being accepted into fully female order.
            The Furies are a greek-inspired tribe, so I wouldn't see any issue in accepting a sex-changed Garou (they already accept male metis anyway), but accomplishing such a permanent and true change to be on par with Classic-era shapeshifting and curses is going to require some helluva godly power. The Garou would still lose honour and be shunned for changing, but as long as she can breed there would be no further problems I think.

            I finally bothered to make a forum account just so I could come talk about Changing Ways. I'm most of the way through the Lupus chapter and, while I've enjoyed a lot of things (especially the metis chapter), I have formed a collection of beefs of varying sizes. I apologize in advance for length:
            Well, you didn't lie, it WAS long. But also quite well-made and properly presented.

            Inconsistency: Page 63 talks about how aggressively anti gay werewolf/werewolf relationships the Glass Walkers are even though a previous section talked about how they tolerate/even encourage them. This would've been fine if it were identified as unusual, but the character that talks about it states it like it's a whole-tribe norm.
            The old Revised tribebook gave the idea that protected mating with other garou was still to be considered forbidden, even if the issue was not focused on the single couple (= a single couple of meaningless, but if we have half of the tribe mating between garou we have a problem, even with birth control); although as a tribe it makes sense for them to both be on-par with human society and evolve quickly it still feels odd to read this kind of difference.

            My eyes kind of skated over that one and I immediately forgot about it, so good catch. The sad part is it's the World of Darkness, though, so "big pharma is out to get you!" isn't a totally unreasonable stance for Garou. Depending on how your ST runs the setting, anyway.
            Also, werewolves have such over-efficients immune system and cell regeneration that they're unlikely to get any kind of common sickness, so it's less insane for them.
            Last edited by Maris Streck; 12-22-2017, 07:55 AM.

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            • #36
              Originally posted by The young man in the cafe View Post
              I’ve heard there’s anti-Vaxxer stuff in this book as well

              Where's the Picard face-palm gif when you need it? And that's not for the passage.That's for people looking a bit TOO deeply into a fictional universe where 10 foot tall werewolves can regrow limbs.


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              • #37
                Originally posted by Changing Ways, chapter 3, p.90
                The reluctance of the homids to do the same is strange and upsetting. Rumors abound of some Black Furies forcing the few male homids they accept to breed with lupus Kinfolk, and of Red Talons kidnapping homids of other tribes to breed with the Talons’ wolf-Kin.

                Hispothesis Brought this up, but I think it was swallowed underneath all other stuff from their look into the book for me. Until now,


                Okay, just... Black Fury male thing has been discussed all ready on these forums. Here is the thread I started about the BNS book that had it. But the Red Talon thing is just baffling. From reading a lot about the tribe, a huge point of PRIDE to them -is- that they have no homids or homid blood as that made other tribes ignorant to them. Unlike Fangs, Talons don't have their heads up in the arses enough to not see when to change tactics. If they are kidnapping homids to breed with their kin for some reason, they'd prolly start having homids in general.

                Or is it some sort of a weird torture Dying Cubs do to homids?`Sounds more like stuff BSDs would do.


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                • #38
                  Originally posted by Fat Larry View Post


                  Where's the Picard face-palm gif when you need it? And that's not for the passage.That's for people looking a bit TOO deeply into a fictional universe where 10 foot tall werewolves can regrow limbs.
                  The setting often asks you to look deeper into a lot of its material, even if the demonstrations are sometimes transparent in intent. Remember when the Get of Fenris killed the Swords of Heimdall camp?

                  Good times. Good times.

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                  • #39
                    Originally posted by Saur Ops Specialist View Post

                    The setting often asks you to look deeper into a lot of its material, even if the demonstrations are sometimes transparent in intent. Remember when the Get of Fenris killed the Swords of Heimdall camp?

                    Good times. Good times.

                    +1 for nostalgia.

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                    • #40
                      Originally posted by Maris Streck View Post
                      The issue I see with transgender people, instead, is not with the gender/sexuality by itself but something more on the line of "how Gaia made you". It's considered highly shameful to even change one own's auspice, why should changing sex be any different? Also, can they even do that? I'd assume that Garou regeneration nullifies any kind of surgical change to the body and even shapeshifting gifts or supernatural meaning of sex-change (Awakened Life magick) can't provide fertility - and here we are back to the breeding issue.
                      Glancing at the rite of renunciation and mention of renunciation in W20 again, as far as I can tell the retribution for that is a werewolf culture problem and not anything on a real spiritual level. Loss of renown is a big deal, but renown is (at least in core?) about how the werewolf's peers view them. It's not like Forsaken where renown is spiritually written into your form. (And if it is, it's in a book I forgot to check?)

                      This comparison actually comes up in the Book of Auspices, there's a sidebar about renunciation (p14) directly comparing changing of physical sex to the renunciation of an auspice and that it is "every bit as drastic, misunderstood, and socially stigmatized". Hell, I'd think auspice changing should be a bigger deal than gender. Auspice is spiritually assigned by Luna while gender is a human social construct (as demonstrated by the existence of cultures with varied gender structures outside our male/female dichotomy).

                      I'd expect a large number of, say, modern Homid Garou from western societies to be intolerant in the same way a lot of people in reality are. However, this not being a universal hardwired truth for all Garou means it's within a storyteller's hands to tailor local werewolf custom to match what they want for their chronicle (and to match cultures that aren't current western societies). Fiction you make up for fun with your friends doesn't always have to reflect depressing truth in every area.

                      But anyway: My objection re: this specific presentation of sexual reassignment and regeneration isn't just because of regeneration, it's because it directly contradicts other information right in Changing Ways. It talks about body modification on p15: "Afterwards, the werewolf’s body recognizes any alterations as part of the body’s proper pattern, and will restore tattoos, scars, and other modifications during regeneration." While the initial alteration can be rough (requiring a roll unless there are silver implements), it's totally doable. I don't see why there was a special sidebar written about surgical alteration of transgender characters in light of this. One might argue that surgery is more major, but I still don't see why it's that big of a deal. Garou endure worse than controlled surgery all the time.

                      Well, you didn't lie, it WAS long. But also quite well-made and properly presented.
                      Thanks yo, I try!

                      The old Revised tribebook gave the idea that protected mating with other garou was still to be considered forbidden, even if the issue was not focused on the single couple (= a single couple of meaningless, but if we have half of the tribe mating between garou we have a problem, even with birth control); although as a tribe it makes sense for them to both be on-par with human society and evolve quickly it still feels odd to read this kind of difference.
                      This is another case of my beef being centered on inconsistency in Changing Ways. On p57 we have "The Children of Gaia are the main proponents of this, with the Glass Walkers also supporting this interpretation. Both tribes see no problems with homosexual relationships among werewolves." The "this" in this instance refers to the interpretation that the Litany only refers to sex for the purpose of procreation.

                      Meanwhile, on p63, we have a Glasswalker NPC stating: "Importantly, we are one of the tribes that really discourage homosexual relations between Garou. The other tribes are already suspicious of us for our embrace of the Weaver. There is no reason to add breaches of the Litany to the list, even if that breach is only a technicality."


                      The early bird catches the Wyrm.

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                      • #41
                        Originally posted by Hispothesis View Post
                        But anyway: My objection re: this specific presentation of sexual reassignment and regeneration isn't just because of regeneration, it's because it directly contradicts other information right in Changing Ways. It talks about body modification on p15: "Afterwards, the werewolf’s body recognizes any alterations as part of the body’s proper pattern, and will restore tattoos, scars, and other modifications during regeneration." While the initial alteration can be rough (requiring a roll unless there are silver implements), it's totally doable. I don't see why there was a special sidebar written about surgical alteration of transgender characters in light of this. One might argue that surgery is more major, but I still don't see why it's that big of a deal. Garou endure worse than controlled surgery all the time.
                        OK, so if a piercing is difficulty 5, and a large 6 hour tattoo session is difficulty 8, where does large scale plastic surgery fall for you in this?

                        I don't see there being a lot of incoherence in this, because on the scale p. 15 provides, the difficulty should be well above 10 (aka impossible by W20 rules).

                        Werewolves endure worse doesn't mean it leads to a desired medical alteration of their bodies. A werewolf can endure a chainsaw to their gut, but they'll heal it back to normal with maybe some scaring.

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                        • #42
                          This information indicates that when Garou heal, changes to their bodies that they see as part of themselves/who they are can remain. Making an exception for transgender characters is needless and a bizarrely exclusionary result of what I believe was an inclusive intention in mentioning them at all.

                          Anyway, now that I've had time to properly sit down with the rest of it:

                          Did anyone else think the pack territory bit was very WtF? Not that I object to packs maintaining smaller territories of their own as a potential direction for a chronicle, but where it starts talking about the nearest sept possibly being "hundreds of miles away" and how packs should worry about crossing pack borders rather than sept borders while traveling, it really didn't match with my understanding of sept territories. This combined with talk of packs of 30+ individuals when that can constitute a whole sept was pretty odd. It makes sense if WtA is like WtF where packs spend most of their time acting independently of oversight in their own territories, but the areas described seem large enough to be sept territories.

                          I liked the stuff about rites and gifts, especially rite alteration and the underpinning of how rites work.

                          Other than that, I think that sums up my #importantthoughts on Changing Ways. I need to collect the typos I found for the errata thread.


                          The early bird catches the Wyrm.

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                          • #43
                            Originally posted by Hispothesis View Post
                            This information indicates that when Garou heal, changes to their bodies that they see as part of themselves/who they are can remain. Making an exception for transgender characters is needless and a bizarrely exclusionary result of what I believe was an inclusive intention in mentioning them at all.

                            Anyway, now that I've had time to properly sit down with the rest of it:

                            Did anyone else think the pack territory bit was very WtF? Not that I object to packs maintaining smaller territories of their own as a potential direction for a chronicle, but where it starts talking about the nearest sept possibly being "hundreds of miles away" and how packs should worry about crossing pack borders rather than sept borders while traveling, it really didn't match with my understanding of sept territories. This combined with talk of packs of 30+ individuals when that can constitute a whole sept was pretty odd. It makes sense if WtA is like WtF where packs spend most of their time acting independently of oversight in their own territories, but the areas described seem large enough to be sept territories.

                            I liked the stuff about rites and gifts, especially rite alteration and the underpinning of how rites work.

                            Other than that, I think that sums up my #importantthoughts on Changing Ways. I need to collect the typos I found for the errata thread.
                            Theres quite a few bits in there that make me wonder if some of the writers thought it was a WtF book actually....its kinda weird.

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                            • #44
                              Originally posted by Damian May View Post

                              Theres quite a few bits in there that make me wonder if some of the writers thought it was a WtF book actually....its kinda weird.
                              ---


                              As for the surgery on garou, let us note that Cyberdogs not only exist, but have some much more complex invasive surgeries on garou than a sex correction one. Plus, with spirits that change gender or spirits that represent one gender specifically, I highly doubt sex correction surgery/ritual would be impossible. Plus, again, trans people have always existed. In a culture focused on change and on spirits, I do think that there were ways to handle things before surgery became an option.
                              Last edited by Ana Mizuki; 12-23-2017, 01:53 PM.


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                              • #45
                                Originally posted by Hispothesis View Post
                                This information indicates that when Garou heal, changes to their bodies that they see as part of themselves/who they are can remain. Making an exception for transgender characters is needless and a bizarrely exclusionary result of what I believe was an inclusive intention in mentioning them at all.
                                Where does it say that sexual reassignment surgery is an exception though? I'm pretty sure Herbert Chavez's reconstructive surgery to look like Superman would have failed if he was a Garou just as much. It's just that discussing transgender issues is of a lot more practical application than people that are willing to go through almost two dozen surgeries to look like a fiction character.

                                Garou, in general, don't need the most common types of surgeries designed to significantly alter people's bodies. Their healing takes care of it, or they're Metis and can't just Willpower and surgery away their deformities.

                                It also doesn't really seem to be that exclusionary when right after it talks about how human medicine doesn't work for transgender Garou that want to change their physical bodies, doing quests for spirits totally does (and can have results far superior to modern medicine anyway). "Garou can't do this a human way, but can totally do it a spirit way," doesn't really come off as exclusionary to me.

                                Did anyone else think the pack territory bit was very WtF? Not that I object to packs maintaining smaller territories of their own as a potential direction for a chronicle, but where it starts talking about the nearest sept possibly being "hundreds of miles away" and how packs should worry about crossing pack borders rather than sept borders while traveling, it really didn't match with my understanding of sept territories.
                                It certainly stretches previous books on this. The books have generally maintained that larger Septs (aka ones with multiple packs) generally have pack territories around the Sept. But only in the largest wilderness Septs with huge Protectorates would there be any inkling of that sort of distance or territorial dispute. So this part is kinda mixed.

                                This combined with talk of packs of 30+ individuals when that can constitute a whole sept was pretty odd. It makes sense if WtA is like WtF where packs spend most of their time acting independently of oversight in their own territories, but the areas described seem large enough to be sept territories.
                                This doesn't even make sense from a Forsaken perspective. Forsaken 1e had assumptions about pack size closer to what WtA seemed to always have (between 3 and 12). Forsaken 2e has much, much larger packs as options, but only because Forsaken 2e includes non-werewolves as spiritually bonded members of the pack. The 30+ passage is baffling, since it's the first Werewolf of either sort that has suggested packs that size are possible. I can't even recall that being something coming from the BNS WtA LARP book like the Black Furies starting to accept non-Meits male members.

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