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Changing Ways thoughts

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  • #61
    Well....looking at Twitter at the moment at least one CW writer is pissed at t he stuff that was inserted into the section they wrote.

    For those paying attention apparently the anti-trans, anti-vax and other bullshit wasnt in the material they submitted.

    I trust Stew not to go about inserting utter that narrows it down a little....


    • #62
      I'm aware of the Twitter stuff you're talking about... but frankly it comes off as far more, "I'm pissed that they changed my stuff," than anything really substantive.

      Like the whole anti-vax thing? The text we're talking about doesn't - in the slightest - portray the Garou Nation as being right or noble for having anti-vax as a mainstream attitude.

      It would also make far less sense for the Garou Nation as a whole to be completely cool with vaccinations, instead of that mostly being a Glasswalker and Children of Gaia thing, with some liberal homids of some of the other Tribes. The Garou have been consistently portrayed since 1e as not liking human technology, which includes human medicine.

      If the writer in question was pissed off about the book saying, "Vaccines are dumb, and the Garou that deny them to their kin are clearly smart for doing so," I'd have a lot more sympathy for him. Being pissed off that someone added a section to his chapter about the Garou being dumb about human medicine, because they tend to be dumb about how to handle the impact of Weaver stuff in general, even to the point where some of them have almost accidentally killed off their own kin families, doesn't seem like someone caring too much about the text.

      Changing Ways has a lot of problems. The stuff in chapter one is not the stuff that feels overly influenced by WW.

      And, keep in mind, there's always a combination factor here that none of us can speak to with authority. Maybe Stew added the sidebar on transgender Garou, and his was way better, but WW decided for whatever reasons to adjust it. The only people that could actually say what happened aren't talking about it here.


      • #63
        And until they do we can only go on the info we have....which at the moment means the whole thing strongly resembles a dumpster may be a bunch of roses cunningly disguised as a dumpster fire but we've got no way of knowing that.


        • #64
          The.... whole issue on this tangent is that we don't know where the changes came from... so yeah, that's the whole point some of us are making. We don't know, people are assuming, and too many speaking on those assumptions as if they were confirmed thing.

          And I don't think the quality of the book has anything to do with who inserted what. Finding out WW inserted something we all seem to agree is a bad part of the book? It's a nice way to reassure ourselves that Onyx Path is still keeping itself to the highest standards it can while under WW's thumb regarding the IPs WW owns. But sometimes books aren't as good as we'd like. Any RP company with as many books out as Onyx Path has, is going to have some duds. Even when written by people we associate with their best books.

          Of course, if we're going to talk about the information that we have... how do we want to factor in that at least two of the writers of Changing Ways had pretty acrimonious splits with Onyx Path? If a writer's decided to cut their ties with Onyx Path, it could easily make it very hard for the line developer to go to that writer to work through some later stage revisions to their sections... leading to a book with mixed quality and odd insert issues.


          • #65
            not worth engaging with any of this
            Last edited by Lucy Darling; 01-02-2018, 07:46 PM. Reason: second thoughts

            ". ... for me, the transformative power of art is you are not above the material." -= Guillermo del Toro


            • #66
              Heavy Arms Okay I feel like you are distinctly moving the goal post of what constitutes "evidence". If the public and direct word from the freelance writer who wrote the original manuscript, and corroboration from other freelancers of the project whom have laid eyes on the project is not enough. Then what is?

              May you live in interesting times

              Storyteller of Sun Forged Oath and The Hakura Chronicle.


              • #67
                I'm not moving a goal post. I'm pointing out how these books are actually constructed doesn't allow the statements made to be definitive.

                Holden (why are we even dancing around his name?) was contracted to write some amount of text for the book. His statements and Lucy's statements are plenty for me that he was contracted to write the book's Chapter One, and did so. Their word on that part is fine.

                It's the fact that at least four people/groups get to modify what he wrote for the book after he's submitted it and done any requested rewrites that leaves the "who did what changes" an unknown.

                As I've said, Rich - using Brucato's inclusion of it from the Mage 20th Cookbook - laid out in detail how this goes. The writers submit their work to the book's developers (in this case is also the line developer). with potential for the developer to do some redlines and ask for rewrites from the writers. The developer takes all the contracted submissions to assemble the first draft of the total manuscript. If the book developer isn't the line developer, the line developer, editors, and Rich all get a pass at the book. Generally this doesn't go back to the writers, and the book developer handles all rewrites, inserts, etc. Then WW gets to do their pass. Then the content is finalized and the book moves on to cleaning it up for the final product instead of content development. This is me summarizing stuff that is public knowledge about the process, not speculating.

                Holden and Lucy haven't said they've seen anything after the first step. Holden sent off his draft with whatever redline corrections Stew requested, and nothing he or Lucy have said implies they've been part of the process from then on. Not for Stew's developer pass to turn a bunch of different people's work into a cohesive book. Not for content editors to help Stew with a new set of eyes on the text offering more revisions. Not for anything Rich (or someone else at Onyx Path that's not a freelancer like Rose) might have wanted changed. Not for WW's approval process. All of that is still a black box to us where we don't know where the changes to Holden's writing were made and who did them.

                Neither of them according to any of their public comments were a part of the process after Holden submitted his part, so neither of them knows that WW in particular mandated any changes. Neither of them has cited something they heard from someone who was part of the higher level process that could actually state these things with authority.

                Nobody is contradicting Holden's statement that the text contains stuff he didn't do. Of course, none of us knew what he did until he said something about it. We're contradicting the claim that many people have made that there is clear evidence WW did it.

                And to be clear, I'd be happy to know it was WW. My posting history here is pretty undeniably anti-new-WW. I'd love to know that Onyx Path had a decent book and WW fucked it up, so I don't have to deal with Onyx Path putting out a stinker. But I'm not going put blame on WW because it's convenient to my view of the different companies. If we get someone that actually knows confirm it? Great. Until then, we can hold off stating it as fact.


                • #68
                  Wilson has confirmed it so, just maybe, next time you wanna teach your grandma to suck eggs remember she's been doing this longer than you.

                  ". ... for me, the transformative power of art is you are not above the material." -= Guillermo del Toro


                  • #69
                    Yeah, when DR is confirming it, it seems kind of ridiculous to go 'oh but there's no proof!' The person who'd best know is the one telling us it's true.


                    • #70
                      Link? Can't find any comment on this on Twitter, his blog, this forum, comments in on the Onyx Path main page, and so on.


                      • #71


                        • #72
                          Originally posted by Heavy Arms View Post
                          The new terms introduced around packs are certainly part of the problem with perception about things being too "Forsaken" because they looks like words from Forsaken's fictional First Tongue language (which is based on Sumerian and run through a linguistic heuristic to give it a very primitive feel) rather than WtA's approach of a pidgin of terms from multiple human cultures.
                          I personally find this odd, i like both games but to me, first tongue would have fit Apocalypse better than Forsaken considering the former are a nation with sense of identity with people raise indoctrinated from birth and at one point in time actually hold a government.

                          Originally posted by Ana Mizuki View Post
                          And, yet again, the blessed pack. I am in no way implying anyone stealing anything here, but I own Signs of the Moon and it states on p.190-191 that a blessed pack is one with all five auspices. The exact same thing applies to the blessed pack in Changing Ways p.110. What is more, it is written as somewhat unusual as it states that with one member always under their auspice moon, there is no breathing room. But generally, a pack is almost expected to have all five auspices in WtA, while in WtF it is treated as a luck of a draw how the pack's auspice situation goes.
                          I do remember playing games in which having a "blessed pack" meaning one with one Garou of each auspice was a renown worthy thing? Was that incorrect?


                          • #73

                            You got former employees stirring shit about their previous employers.

                            The book might be pretty awful, but there are still three sides to every story. And unlike Holden, or David Hill, or anyone else who's launched social media crusades against White Wolf AND Onyx Path, the companies have professional standards they have to adhere to. I think even one of the current OP employees stated in the Onyx Path New Year's Blog Post how much they would LIKE to say something, but cannot.

                            I do find the bridge-burning done by the disgruntled ex-employees interesting, especially when they gripe and complain how difficult it is to find work.

                            The lack of self-awareness is troubling.
                            Last edited by Fat Larry; 01-03-2018, 10:56 AM.

                            PENTEX SUCKS.

                            I'm a gamer. I'm conservative. We exist.


                            • #74
                              Originally posted by LokiRavenSpeak View Post
                              I do remember playing games in which having a "blessed pack" meaning one with one Garou of each auspice was a renown worthy thing? Was that incorrect?
                              Not really, your ST might have just used the Forsaken concept or made their own idea. I do not mind there being a blessed pack as much as I'm a bit weirded out that it is identical to the WtF one, rather than being different and fitting what might a blessed -garou- pack be.

                              To the discussion on the changes and ParaWolf meddling, I have found a part of the Lupus chapter which does sound about the level of the stuff happening in the 5th edition Vampire playtest.

                              I am going to put this in spoilers because I know this topic is a bit queasy to some and how it was handled was rather awful. Also, rape warning.

                              Now, I think I have gotten enough of a reputation on these and the old forums for being a proponent of garou mating with both humans and wolves. To me, it is not shock jockeying when the focus is never on the actual act.

                              However, the lupus chapter, in fact, goes into a long discussion on the whole thing and is it beastiality. In fact, even subverting the previous canon on the fact that homid males find it difficult to mate with female wolfkin. When it has been pretty common in previous books. This is not a discussion that really needs to happen in the books, to me. I know people are mega uncomfortable with the concept as it is, but bringing beastiality discussion into the mix just makes things worse.

                              It is also in this section that the Black Furies forcing their homid males (which don't exist, natch) and Red Talons kidnapping homids to force them to mate with their kin, comes from. Sure, they are treated as rumours, but if it wasn't meant to be somewhat true, it wouldn't have been added.

                              Painting the situation as borderline beastiality for homids is one thing, but outright having homid males have sex with wolf kinfolk at gunpoint is legit shock jockeying. It is beastiality rape, according to the section itself. Nevermind that the Furies chose to use their -homid- males when I'm sure they'd have lupus ones too. Red Talons meanwhile take pride in no human blood in themselves (plus, given there is a merit with a homid ancestor, methinks their kin mix enough with other wolves to have the homid blood).

                              To me, it just screams the same reaction grabbing as Avery and the Pedo-Ventrue.

                              My gallery.


                              • #75
                                Originally posted by loomer View Post
                                Yeah, when DR is confirming it, it seems kind of ridiculous to go 'oh but there's no proof!' The person who'd best know is the one telling us it's true.
                                Thanks for the link, and yes, with Stew finally commenting, it would be ridiculous to continue to demand proof. So not going to be doing that. Hearing it from his fingers is definitely all I needed.

                                Though I'm disappointed that WW's inserts and edits pushed him to the point of phoning it in enough that the writers would all get their full pay on completion. I respect him for powering through for the sake of the project, but I'm hoping that we don't see quality slip in places WW didn't screw up, because I'd like to have more X20 books worth buying.

                                Originally posted by LokiRavenSpeak View Post
                                I personally find this odd, i like both games but to me, first tongue would have fit Apocalypse better than Forsaken considering the former are a nation with sense of identity with people raise indoctrinated from birth and at one point in time actually hold a government.
                                I kinda agree? WtA does have a First Tongue equivalent in the Garou Tongue, but that's apparently meant to include non-verbal elements that require being in non-Homid to communicate in effectively, and is loosely represented in the game's glyphs (which isn't as simple to make your own for, since you'd have to both try to suss out the rules of constructing them and be ably to draw them decently). The mess of human terms used to communicate most of those concepts in the text never made sense to me. I've thought for a long time that with the European focus of the history of the Garou Nation, the default terms should be consistently in one of the more common older trade languages (Koine Greek would be an obvious choice to me for something with access to resources for modern use, and was spread pretty far, and some obvious backing by a few Tribes, or proto-Celtic if a bit harder to work with if you want to keep the Fianna as the drivers behind it) with maybe a few logical borrow words. Then the game can expand on what the lexicons would be in other areas. The Pure Ones might get a lexicon in a Na-Dene language (it's a language family that spreads from Siberia to Mexico, so it would make sense as something all three Tribes would have had exposure to, to use as a common trade language compared to the other early trade languages here before European colonization), etc.

                                I'm fine with the First Tongue as is in Forsaken, because it's mutually intelligible with spirits, where the Garou languages in WtA are not. I feel that WtA having speaking with spirits being special (I know, not that special, it's not a hard Gift to get access to), even for the Garou, valuable as a stress on different things than WtF going the route of all Uratha can learn to talk to spirits easily.

                                I do remember playing games in which having a "blessed pack" meaning one with one Garou of each auspice was a renown worthy thing? Was that incorrect?
                                Maybe you're thinking of a Silver Pack? In WtA a Silver Pack is a specially selected group of experienced Garou - one of each Auspice - formed for a specific mission of dire importance during a concolcation. Unlike just being in a pack with one of each Auspice, being in a Silver Pack is a big enough deal that even being picked to compete for a spot in one can get you some decent Renown rewards, and being selected could net you up to 8 temporary Renown in each category (though unlikely for one of the five to take off with that much of the potential).