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  • #76
    Originally posted by Heavy Arms View Post
    Maybe you're thinking of a Silver Pack? In WtA a Silver Pack is a specially selected group of experienced Garou - one of each Auspice - formed for a specific mission of dire importance during a concolcation. Unlike just being in a pack with one of each Auspice, being in a Silver Pack is a big enough deal that even being picked to compete for a spot in one can get you some decent Renown rewards, and being selected could net you up to 8 temporary Renown in each category (though unlikely for one of the five to take off with that much of the potential).
    Also, you can only have one totem - Phoenix, as it is the only one that forms Silver Packs.

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    • #77
      Originally posted by Heavy Arms View Post
      Maybe you're thinking of a Silver Pack? In WtA a Silver Pack is a specially selected group of experienced Garou - one of each Auspice - formed for a specific mission of dire importance during a concolcation. Unlike just being in a pack with one of each Auspice, being in a Silver Pack is a big enough deal that even being picked to compete for a spot in one can get you some decent Renown rewards, and being selected could net you up to 8 temporary Renown in each category (though unlikely for one of the five to take off with that much of the potential).
      Nah, I was probably a houserule that the didnt tell us it was a houserule like "Totems only join pack that have at least a member of their tribe". I remember because my character specifically piss Phoenix off but he still gained renown for being part of a 1-of-each-auspice pack.

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      • #78
        I don't know if was actively called a "Blessed' pack but i'm sure I saw that it was seen as auspicious(HEH) to have each of the Auspices in a Pack. That much like Multi-Tribe packs, packs lacking particular auspices or having more than one was seen as a sign of modern weaknesses among the Garou.

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        • #79
          Originally posted by Ana Mizuki View Post
          It is also in this section that the Black Furies forcing their homid males (which don't exist, natch) and Red Talons kidnapping homids to force them to mate with their kin, comes from. Sure, they are treated as rumours, but if it wasn't meant to be somewhat true, it wouldn't have been added.
          I can see Black Furies raping kinfolk males to procreate, it could actually fit the Tribe quite well: they're amazons, warriors with no time for courting, they need children now (of course this is speaking through stereotypes, not true for every BF around) and breeding is exactly the role Gaia is expecting from kinfolks. Unwilling kins stressing on the freedom of choice could just been seen as failing Gaia and be taken anyway.
          Seducing a willing human may be certainly easier and only require to hit a bar somewhere, but kinfolks have an higher chance to breed true and somewhere there may be some Garou willing to take some Honour penality for a warrior child.

          Talonsxhumans is a ship that won't sail in any of my campaigns, it makes too little sense. I can't really see Griffin either allowing this kind of behaviour or accepting humanspawns.

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          • #80
            Originally posted by Maris Streck View Post

            I can see Black Furies raping kinfolk males to procreate, it could actually fit the Tribe quite well: they're amazons, warriors with no time for courting, they need children now (of course this is speaking through stereotypes, not true for every BF around) and breeding is exactly the role Gaia is expecting from kinfolks. Unwilling kins stressing on the freedom of choice could just been seen as failing Gaia and be taken anyway.
            Seducing a willing human may be certainly easier and only require to hit a bar somewhere, but kinfolks have an higher chance to breed true and somewhere there may be some Garou willing to take some Honour penality for a warrior child.
            Or, you know, have sex with a willing kin? Remember that there are kin in the know and Furies do have them. Besides, even if Furies might ignore the male part, rape is one thing they very much try to combat as a threat to women. I mean, yeah, I'm sure this happens. But I don't think it is the baseline, given having kinfolk males as global studs is much easier in the long run. Effed up, yes, but less obviously so.


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            • #81
              Originally posted by Ana Mizuki View Post
              Or, you know, have sex with a willing kin? Remember that there are kin in the know and Furies do have them. Besides, even if Furies might ignore the male part, rape is one thing they very much try to combat as a threat to women. I mean, yeah, I'm sure this happens. But I don't think it is the baseline, given having kinfolk males as global studs is much easier in the long run. Effed up, yes, but less obviously so.
              Willing sex needs a willing partner. Most tribes surely have kinfolks willing to help their relatives, but lending your car is a bit different than lending your own body. Maybe the kin already loves a schoolmate or a work collegue, maybe he hates you for how you treated his family or maybe he's just not attracted by your huge web of scars. The Fangs are used to selectively breed their own kinfolks and to arrange pre-defined weddings, the Furies don't and they may have a less then willing kin around. It depends on the campaign, of course, but I can see it happening.

              On a general, global scale, there are certainly going to be several local groups of Garou with different ideas on ethics and relations with both kin and humans. The Black Furies background is mostly oriented toward an asymmetrical behaviour after all, usually considering men as a problem: Pegasus hates men, many Furies hate men and parity is only advocated by the kindest of them. Since we're talking about the not-kind ones, I don't think it's too far-fetched to imagine them justifying raping males (and only males) for the greater good.
              It also pairs quite well with the objectification of the Kinfolks, the common practice of seeing them as servants and the abuses against them. I realise that not every party may want this kind of grim story in their campaign but lore-wise I think it may fit.

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              • #82
                Originally posted by Maris Streck View Post

                Willing sex needs a willing partner. Most tribes surely have kinfolks willing to help their relatives, but lending your car is a bit different than lending your own body. Maybe the kin already loves a schoolmate or a work collegue, maybe he hates you for how you treated his family or maybe he's just not attracted by your huge web of scars. The Fangs are used to selectively breed their own kinfolks and to arrange pre-defined weddings, the Furies don't and they may have a less then willing kin around. It depends on the campaign, of course, but I can see it happening.
                I think this is where our experiences differ pretty vastly, as I'm used to seeing most kinfolk mated to a garou. Maybe due to my forum game experience, but having a kinfolk who -isn't- mated to a garou has been a rarity indeed and one that was usually recktified -very- quickly. This possibly ties back to the whole issue of kinfolk-PCs as useless, but that is a topic for another time.

                Do I think some Furies rape men? Absolutely. But I think in general it might be a more insidious harem set-up where the kinfolk men are forced to have sex with selected Furies, and since these kinfolk men have drank the kool-aid thinking this sort of abuse is correct they don't fight back. Much easier for the Furies in long term than just forcing themselves on unwilling kinfolk.


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                • #83
                  Originally posted by Ana Mizuki View Post

                  Or, you know, have sex with a willing kin? Remember that there are kin in the know and Furies do have them. Besides, even if Furies might ignore the male part, rape is one thing they very much try to combat as a threat to women. I mean, yeah, I'm sure this happens. But I don't think it is the baseline, given having kinfolk males as global studs is much easier in the long run. Effed up, yes, but less obviously so.
                  Agreed. There is a difference between treating male kin poorly and engaging in sexual slavery. I don't really see what Fury rape adds. I mean, ok, some Furies are so wrapped up in their feminine superiority complexes that they rape men- I get that, but why feature it? If it is a tightly held secret, fine, but then it won't feature much or at all. If it is discovered or brought to the light, what then? It isn't like rape is a nuanced addition, something to mull over. Most reasonable characters who learn about it would react with revulsion. If I were a Garou and a nearby sept had basically become a rape/breeding mill (regardless of tribe/gender), I would likely push for harsh judgement, and failing that, outright war.


                  Willing sex needs a willing partner. Most tribes surely have kinfolks willing to help their relatives, but lending your car is a bit different than lending your own body. Maybe the kin already loves a schoolmate or a work collegue, maybe he hates you for how you treated his family or maybe he's just not attracted by your huge web of scars. The Fangs are used to selectively breed their own kinfolks and to arrange pre-defined weddings, the Furies don't and they may have a less then willing kin around. It depends on the campaign, of course, but I can see it happening.

                  On a general, global scale, there are certainly going to be several local groups of Garou with different ideas on ethics and relations with both kin and humans. The Black Furies background is mostly oriented toward an asymmetrical behaviour after all, usually considering men as a problem: Pegasus hates men, many Furies hate men and parity is only advocated by the kindest of them. Since we're talking about the not-kind ones, I don't think it's too far-fetched to imagine them justifying raping males (and only males) for the greater good.
                  It also pairs quite well with the objectification of the Kinfolks, the common practice of seeing them as servants and the abuses against them. I realise that not every party may want this kind of grim story in their campaign but lore-wise I think it may fit.
                  I appreciate that you are trying to paint this as a move of practicality, but I just don't see it. Kidnapping dudes and forcing them to have sex is just not a good long term way of having a tribe. It can't be normal (certainly not on the level of arranged marriages like what the Silver Fangs do).

                  Garou and kinfolk mutually depend on one another. If you rape your men, you might not have many men kinfolk around, so then you need to get more, and that is risky. If you go kidnapping kinfolk men, that seems like a good way to step on the toes of other tribes. Nevermind the fact that if you have male kinfolk getting raped, their sisters and mothers and spouses might not be really ok with it. I get that kin are supposed to be subservient to a degree, but I doubt everyone is drinking the hyper-abusive koolaide 100% of the time. If I were a mother in such an environment, I would likely want my son to escape and get help... I know there are stories about kinfolk being horribly treated, but that is the exception rather than the rule. It has to be, otherwise the kin (who outnumber the Garou substantially) would have left or turned on their animalistic brethren long ago.

                  The other thing is that from an animistic perspective, a long-term culture of rape is not something that works, spiritually speaking. Too much pain and suffering and hate. That is the sort of thing the Wyrm feeds on. Rape is a vicious and soul-killing act (the genders involved don't matter), and it won't take long for those 'Gaian' Black Furies to become as twisted and cruel as their Wyrm-worshipping counterparts, mental gymnastics be damned.

                  Since we kind of already have the nasty rape-obsessed tribe, the Black Spiral Dancers, and I would like to believe the Black Furies or the Red Talons are above stooping to their level.
                  Last edited by The Laughing Stranger; 01-05-2018, 02:08 PM.

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                  • #84
                    Originally posted by Ana Mizuki View Post

                    Or, you know, have sex with a willing kin? Remember that there are kin in the know and Furies do have them. Besides, even if Furies might ignore the male part, rape is one thing they very much try to combat as a threat to women. I mean, yeah, I'm sure this happens. But I don't think it is the baseline, given having kinfolk males as global studs is much easier in the long run. Effed up, yes, but less obviously so.
                    The Furies as a whole are portrayed as being an avenging Tribe. It’s even their tribal glyph, the scales of justice and a lightning bolt for swift punishment. Rape in general is seen as one of the worst crimes against Gaia’s law and natural order and is something the Tribe actively seeks to punish. The Bacchantes camp is one of the most traditional camps and their entire purpose is punishing rapists, murderers, abusers, etc. I don’t think as a rule the Black Furies would condone rape in any way, that level of a lack of self awareness would be comical. I know it’s the “world of darkness” and things are shitty but how dense would they need to be to say, “rape is terrible, kill the rapists! Now let’s rape these men for babies!” It’s comically stupid.

                    Besides, the tribebook even says that as a whole the tribe recognizes that a man and a woman are required to have children and are smart enough to not take anti-male aggression out on their kin and that they don’t live in fear. Now I’m sure there are exceptions but it’s most definitely not the rule. Not even close.

                    I find that those who often see or portray the Furies as “feminazi man haters”, and “woman supremacists” usually have a very poor understanding of the tribe and what it actually represents.


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                    • #85
                      Originally posted by The Laughing Stranger View Post
                      I appreciate that you are trying to paint this as a move of practicality, but I just don't see it. Kidnapping dudes and forcing them to have sex is just not a good long term way of having a tribe. It can't be normal (certainly not on the level of arranged marriages like what the Silver Fangs do).
                      I'm not saying it's supposed to be normal, I think that it was mentioned in the book only as a plot hook; the point of the supplement is to give ideas to the Storytellers, maybe you'll want to grow something out of this one or maybe not.

                      And the Garou are frightening, even for a Kinfolk immune to the Curse and Delirium. They are strong, trained to kill and can just snap and frenzy out anytime. If your Garou mother wouldn't usually beat you in her right mind she may still have Rage 9 and dismember you under a full moon - and you maybe know it; even a contained Frenzy (=suppressed through willpower) could be RPed as a powerful backhand blow.

                      So yes, they may run away and seek shelter into other Kinfolk families but it may not be so easy for a Kin to play rebel. The Garou society is usually frowning on abusing the Kinfolk (you lose Renown for doing so, after all), but I'm not under the impression that there's any sanction or punishment for the action; they mistreat them, maybe a packmate says stop you dork and that's it. I have this classic-age slave feeling when I think about kinfolks: yes, you may love them but as far as society is concerned they are your property, so you can break your own with little to no consequence should you like it.

                      I mean, what would the point of the Judges of Gaia be if the situation weren't bad enough?

                      The other thing is that from an animistic perspective, a long-term culture of rape is not something that works, spiritually speaking. Too much pain and suffering and hate. That is the sort of thing the Wyrm feeds on. Rape is a vicious and soul-killing act (the genders involved don't matter), and it won't take long for those 'Gaian' Black Furies to become as twisted and cruel as their Wyrm-worshipping counterparts, mental gymnastics be damned.
                      It would mean to compromise, like the Shadow Lords. You feed the Wyrm to grow a warrior that will fight it, the Apocalypse is near and there's no time for playing nice. Is the sacrifice worth it in the long run? That's for the character to choose.

                      I don’t think as a rule the Black Furies would condone rape in any way, that level of a lack of self awareness would be comical.
                      It wouldn't be lack of self awareness, just lack of caring. If you think that women should rule and men serve then you'd be just enforcing your belief, there's no hypocrisy here.
                      Last edited by Maris Streck; 01-05-2018, 02:55 PM.

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                      • #86
                        I think this goes into the issue of 'WtA is played so many ways that its crazy' once again. I mean, let's look at how I was taught the kinfolk situation works.

                        Any kinfolk that can breed are firstly guarded by a garou of their tribe, before another garou challenges for the right to mate with the kinfolk in question. This is a huge deal,too, challenged on the mound and other garou can in fact contest this claim. Sometimes, two suitors will fight one another for the right to mate the kin. Is permission asked from the kin? Sometimes, but sometimes people will outright just claim a kin to be theirs if there are no other tribemates around.

                        Once the kin has been claimed, then they belong to their mate and their mate is responsible if the kin does anything wrong.

                        Is that effed up and borderline slavery? Heck yeah. But that's how it was taught to me.


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                        • #87
                          See, the thing is I haven’t seen a sourcebook that supports the assertion that Black Furies want women to rule and men to serve. They want women out from under the yoke of man. Sure, there are probably misandrist Furies but they are a distinct minority as the tribe is presented more as a cult of fertility and femininity than one of superiority.


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                          • #88
                            Originally posted by Lunar Falcon View Post
                            See, the thing is I haven’t seen a sourcebook that supports the assertion that Black Furies want women to rule and men to serve. They want women out from under the yoke of man. Sure, there are probably misandrist Furies but they are a distinct minority as the tribe is presented more as a cult of fertility and femininity than one of superiority.
                            I can pretty much direct you to the source, as I did a runthrough of all the cores of WtA for another thread. Here is the post: http://forum.theonyxpath.com/forum/m...696#post980696

                            But, I'd say the 2nd edition core is to blame. It basically did a whole 180 on the tribe and emphasised on the female-led aspect and the hatered towards men very VERY strongly.


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                            • #89
                              I see. I have stuff from 1st ed, Revised, and W20. From what I have seen in other discussions online isn’t 2nd ed the one that’s seen as having some of the worst writing and botched stereotyping amongst all the various editions?


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                              • #90
                                Originally posted by Lunar Falcon View Post
                                I see. I have stuff from 1st ed, Revised, and W20. From what I have seen in other discussions online isn’t 2nd ed the one that’s seen as having some of the worst writing and botched stereotyping amongst all the various editions?
                                Most likely, but I don't think that is what makes it so aggravating in the long run. It is the fact that a bunch of people read those descs on the tribes, and have stuck to them from then on. It isn't the actual writing as much as the popularity, in other words.


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