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  • Im not really a huge WtA fan, so take this with a grain of salt. But, in all honesty, I feel that most of the complaints here are a bit too much.

    The info on the Black Furies, for instance, gave me the impression that, for the most part, everyone knew that the Tribe was full of crap and sort off messed up. "Yah, only big, evil males can seduce poor innocent women. Keep telling yourself that..."

    The blue hair thing, (which can be green, pink, purple, etc...), while Im personally not a fan, is noted as being found rediculous and laughable, and comes with an appropriate social penulty.

    All in all, much of the doubts I had from this thread really don't seem too big a deal.

    I did think talking about homosexuality/transgender was a bit overdone, but whatever. Not a huge deal. My bigger complaint is thst it seemed forced into the section about what the Tribes think of Metis, and sort of just didn't fit. Probably should have been it's own little section, rather than shhoved into the Metis ones per Tribe, and not sure I agree with the Get's writeup of encouraging it because it makes them better warriors. Generally it tends to be the reverse, where couples that war together sacrifice duty andbthe mission for the welfare of the lover, or at the very least, it can be viewed as such by others. In the sense I just can't really see the Get not seeing this as a weakness, homo or heterosexual, and at the very least, being extremely weary of it, not encouraging it.

    All in all, not a must have book, but I am not disappointed with my purchase either, and, (only the last few hours Ive been reading through it so far), have found plenty of stuff to use.

    I wish there was more on some subjects, the BSDs where included a bit more as well for their perspective, but still a good read.
    Last edited by Beckett; 01-12-2018, 08:11 AM.

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    • Originally posted by Beckett View Post
      not sure I agree with the Get's writeup of encouraging it because it makes them better warriors. Generally it tends to be the reverse, where couples that war together sacrifice duty andbthe mission for the welfare of the lover, or at the very least, it can be viewed as such by others. In the sense I just can't really see the Get not seeing this as a weakness, homo or heterosexual, and at the very least, being extremely weary of it, not encouraging it.
      Dammit, I wanted to comment about this but I apparently forgot since I can't find anything with the search... but then again, the search function here doesn't really work well, so apologies if I happen to repeat myself.

      This is probably a reference to the Sacred Band of Thebes, a famous elite guard of the ancient times made only by homosexual couples; they were trained and made fight together so that each of them would be driven to give his best in battle, because no one would dare to show cowardice in front of his lover (and to defend him, too). The thing is that homosexuality isn't really a necessity to portray this kind of thing in the modern world, you just need to fight with your loved one - and we all know how this kind of relationship is really frowned upon in the Garou world. Especially for the Get of Fenris, where... well, I'll just quote the GoF 2nd ed tribebook:

      "Some Garou believe that the operative word in this rule is mate, and that merely having sex with other Garou is all right. This is a lie. This law exists so that we will focus our attentions on our homid and wolf kin"

      "Of course the question arises as to whether or not is acceptable to have sex with a Garou of the same gender as your own. Such an act is doubly damned. [...] We are at war! You must never forget that! Sex is not something you can afford to treat as a recreational activity. [...] Among the Garou, we mate with Kin to produce offspring, not for pleasure. Find your satisfaction elsewhere."

      So, I don't know where all that part came out but it really clashes with the classic Werewolf lore. It has been 20 years and maybe we have a new generation of GoF now, but this U-turn is way too sudden.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Beckett View Post
        Im not really a huge WtA fan, so take this with a grain of salt. But, in all honesty, I feel that most of the complaints here are a bit too much.

        The info on the Black Furies, for instance, gave me the impression that, for the most part, everyone knew that the Tribe was full of crap and sort off messed up. "Yah, only big, evil males can seduce poor innocent women. Keep telling yourself that..."

        The blue hair thing, (which can be green, pink, purple, etc...), while Im personally not a fan, is noted as being found rediculous and laughable, and comes with an appropriate social penulty.

        All in all, much of the doubts I had from this thread really don't seem too big a deal.

        I did think talking about homosexuality/transgender was a bit overdone, but whatever. Not a huge deal. My bigger complaint is thst it seemed forced into the section about what the Tribes think of Metis, and sort of just didn't fit. Probably should have been it's own little section, rather than shhoved into the Metis ones per Tribe, and not sure I agree with the Get's writeup of encouraging it because it makes them better warriors. Generally it tends to be the reverse, where couples that war together sacrifice duty andbthe mission for the welfare of the lover, or at the very least, it can be viewed as such by others. In the sense I just can't really see the Get not seeing this as a weakness, homo or heterosexual, and at the very least, being extremely weary of it, not encouraging it.

        All in all, not a must have book, but I am not disappointed with my purchase either, and, (only the last few hours Ive been reading through it so far), have found plenty of stuff to use.

        I wish there was more on some subjects, the BSDs where included a bit more as well for their perspective, but still a good read.
        The Fury thing isn't about the metis section, its the lupus section stating they have male homids who are forced to have sex with their wolf kin. Something that is very far from how the tribe works.

        I do agree on the homosexuality part, though. It felt very forced and weird to be added like that, especially in the metis section. That and the quiet acceptance of farming metis for war, I get that in theory but a huge thing about metis has been that they always take at least one trained warrior from the battle at best. Like Maris Streck there pointed out, previous books noted why homosexuality was not really seen as ok for some tribes.

        The BSD/Wendigo/Silver Fang things were fairly surface level, with very little depth to them.


        My gallery.

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        • Originally posted by Ana Mizuki View Post
          The Fury thing isn't about the metis section, its the lupus section stating they have male homids who are forced to have sex with their wolf kin. Something that is very far from how the tribe works.
          It is different from them kidnapping men to rape and ritually murder afyer they had gotten what they want. Like I said, not a huge WtA fan, but that is the Tribe I recall. Yes, obviously not all, 100%, in total, every single of them, but a large enough portion of them world wide, favored by their Totem, to matter.

          From my understanding, they kiddnap, trick, and anything but "seduce", (only men do that), any male Garou to sleep with their Lupis Kinfolk, because they really have no alternative. Its not that they force males to commit beastiality, but rather that they are favoring wolf children more since they are one of the Tribe's weak spots, and lupis do not view relationships the same as humans.
          Last edited by Beckett; 01-12-2018, 02:37 PM.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Beckett View Post

            It is different from them kidnapping men to rape and ritually murder afyer they had gotten what they want. Like I said, not a huge WtA fan, but that is the Tribe I recall. Yes, obviously not all, 100%, in total, every single of them, but a large enough portion of them world wide, favored by their Totem, to matter.

            Grom my understanding, they kiddnap, trick, and anything but "seduce", (only men do that), any male Garou to sleep with their Lupis Kinfolk, because they really have no alternative. Its not that they force males to commit beastiality, but rather that they are favoring wolf children more since they are one of the Tribe's weak spots.
            That isn't the tribe that is found in W20, though. The way you describe things is more headcanon and 2nd edition book description than what the tribe is in the current books.

            The text has issues, because it states that Furies as a tribe have male homids. They don't. Even if they did, I'm sure they'd rather have their male -lupus- breed with wolf kinfolk. The word used in the paragraph is 'force', as well. So yes, it truly seems that beastiality rape is implied.

            Worse, it goes onto to describe, how Red Talons (the tribe that prides itself in having NO human blood) kidnap homid males to mate with their wolf kinfolk. It just feels so out of character for the tribe to do that that it is kinda funny.

            As well, the part of the chapter that that paragraph belonged to focuses on the morality of homids mating with wolf kin and lupus mating with human kin. It actually paints the homid on wolfkin (through NPC voices, granted) as beastiality and hard for homid to stomach. This has not been the case in previous editions, where some homids would mate with wolfkin and then leave.


            My gallery.

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            • Originally posted by Beckett View Post

              It is different from them kidnapping men to rape and ritually murder afyer they had gotten what they want.
              When did this happen? The only Furies that were presented as doing anything like that (kidnapping and rape) were in Rage Across the Amazon, and the presence of Black Furies in pre-Colombian South America was retconned out in Revised. The passage describing this action in Rage: Warriors of the Apocalypse, in the writeup of Alestro, was also not survivable; no one survives having sex in Crinos if they aren't also in Crinos. As presented, it would have been a Futurama bit involving shattered pelvises. And so it got tossed out.

              Like I said, not a huge WtA fan, but that is the Tribe I recall. Yes, obviously not all, 100%, in total, every single of them, but a large enough portion of them world wide, favored by their Totem, to matter.
              More like closer to 0% of them. This is not how the tribe operates; it doesn't need to carry off unwilling men, and that isn't the aim. They have to sieve extensively to try and find one soul in a multitude that isn't an overly-eager dumbass high on macho posturing when they aren't among the kin of their own tribe, presumably where sons are raised to have self-control and not be overly-eager dumbasses high on macho posturing.

              From my understanding, they kiddnap, trick, and anything but "seduce", (only men do that), any male Garou to sleep with their Lupis Kinfolk, because they really have no alternative. Its not that they force males to commit beastiality, but rather that they are favoring wolf children more since they are one of the Tribe's weak spots, and lupis do not view relationships the same as humans.
              In Kinfolk: Unsung Heroes, it was more or less the other way around - some of the human-born of the tribe preferred being with wolves because they didn't have the cultural baggage of humanity to deal with.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Ana Mizuki View Post
                That isn't the tribe that is found in W20, though. The way you describe things is more headcanon and 2nd edition book description than what the tribe is in the current books.

                The text has issues, because it states that Furies as a tribe have male homids. They don't. Even if they did, I'm sure they'd rather have their male -lupus- breed with wolf kinfolk. The word used in the paragraph is 'force', as well. So yes, it truly seems that beastiality rape is implied.
                I assumed it was non-Black Fury Homids, since the only male Garou they have where sterile.

                And are you sure it is not the Tribe found in W20, (implying it IS the Tribe found in other editions), rather than what you wish the Tribe had always actually been?

                Originally posted by Saur Ops Specialist View Post

                When did this happen?
                I am litetally countries and continents from my books, but pretty sure the honest answer is WtA 1st Ed, 2nd Ed, Revised, and W20.

                Originally posted by Saur Ops Specialist View Post
                In Kinfolk: Unsung Heroes, it was more or less the other way around - some of the human-born of the tribe preferred being with wolves because they didn't have the cultural baggage of humanity to deal with.
                I am not sure if it is what you mean, but it sort of sounds like you are suggesting Black Fury male Kinfolk would rather have sex with Lupis Black Furies than deal with the rest of the Tribe's BS here. I kind of doubt that is what you mean, though, so could you rephrase for clarity?

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                • Originally posted by Saur Ops Specialist View Post

                  When did this happen? The only Furies that were presented as doing anything like that (kidnapping and rape) were in Rage Across the Amazon, and the presence of Black Furies in pre-Colombian South America was retconned out in Revised. The passage describing this action in Rage: Warriors of the Apocalypse, in the writeup of Alestro, was also not survivable; no one survives having sex in Crinos if they aren't also in Crinos. As presented, it would have been a Futurama bit involving shattered pelvises. And so it got tossed out.



                  More like closer to 0% of them. This is not how the tribe operates; it doesn't need to carry off unwilling men, and that isn't the aim. They have to sieve extensively to try and find one soul in a multitude that isn't an overly-eager dumbass high on macho posturing when they aren't among the kin of their own tribe, presumably where sons are raised to have self-control and not be overly-eager dumbasses high on macho posturing.



                  In Kinfolk: Unsung Heroes, it was more or less the other way around - some of the human-born of the tribe preferred being with wolves because they didn't have the cultural baggage of humanity to deal with.

                  All of the above is what my books say. And my collection goes back to 1st Ed.

                  Changing Ways contains some severely wacky shit that we know for sure was inserted after the fact by Parawolf for god knows what reason. Thats just the facts.

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                  • Backup your sources, otherwise you are just challenging others to comb through every book ever looking for instances that back up your assertion.

                    Saying 'every single edition of the game says Black Furies rape' isn't much of a citation. It is actually the exact opposite of a citation.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Beckett View Post
                      And are you sure it is not the Tribe found in W20, (implying it IS the Tribe found in other editions), rather than what you wish the Tribe had always actually been?
                      It is only the tribe in 2nd edition core, at most. Not even 1st ed, actually. I am certain, as well, since I actually did a lot of digging through the books exactly on this.

                      Here's the looksie to how Black Furies see males from older cores; http://forum.theonyxpath.com/forum/m...696#post980696

                      And here's the part from W20;

                      Originally posted by W20, p.80
                      The Furies are almost exclusively female. Any human or
                      wolf cub of a Fury who breeds true is sent to another tribe for
                      adoption; Pegasus, their tribal totem, will not accept male
                      Garou. The sole exception is the male metis: Pegasus accepts
                      these disfigured sons, perhaps out of mercy, perhaps out of a
                      desire to ensure the Black Furies remember their own misdeeds.
                      To make up for these losses of potential tribemates,
                      the Furies actively recruit disaffected and
                      angry female Garou who chafe under another tribe’s banner.
                      The tribe holds that
                      women are worthy of
                      respect, honor, sometimes even veneration. Though no
                      Black Fury will suffer
                      the hand of a man acting as master
                      or tyrant, the tribe isn’t united by active misandry. Certainly
                      some Furies will never forget or forgive. But others are willing
                      to accept men as partners, helpmates, lovers, equals — but
                      nothingmore than equals. Lupus Furies have less of an immediate connection to the hardships of human women, as
                      female wolves have no real discrimination to bear, but they
                      are deeply tied to the Wyld and learn great empathy
                      for their human and homid sisters.
                      Hatred claims the hearts of many Furies,
                      but it’s not a tribal virtue.

                      This is exactly the issue mentioned few pages ago, of how people will stick to older edition/headcanon views on the tribes.


                      My gallery.

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                      • Originally posted by The Laughing Stranger View Post
                        Backup your sources, otherwise you are just challenging others to comb through every book ever looking for instances that back up your assertion.

                        Saying 'every single edition of the game says Black Furies rape' isn't much of a citation. It is actually the exact opposite of a citation.
                        Firstly, I wasn't making a citation, I was pointing out it has always been there. Or at the very least, since 2nd ed.

                        Secondly statements like this go both ways. As I mentioned, my books are all on a different continent than I am, (I am actively deployed), so no, I will not be doing all the work for you. That's actually your job since you are contesting it.

                        Thirdly, you obviously take this personally. But so what. That doesn't make you right and others that disagree wrong.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Ana Mizuki View Post
                          This is exactly the issue mentioned few pages ago, of how people will stick to older edition/headcanon views on the tribes.
                          I do not see the 20th Ed versions as the "definitive", best, most accurate, or whatever else some people do. No more than I am sure many will not toss out W20 when W5 comes out.

                          Just because people or some books/editions want to sweep stuff under the rug or not include it, (or as much, or whatever the case is), does not mean it never existed and/or still does.

                          Garou are not superheroes. They are horrific monsters that have some positive traits. It doesn't help that the Black Furies are a highly contentious aspect of the setting.

                          Different folks will take aspects that they like and ignore, play down, or forget those they don't, likely moreso than nearly any other Tribe or group because the foundation is so loaded.
                          Last edited by Beckett; 01-12-2018, 08:46 PM.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Beckett View Post

                            I do not see the 20th Ed versions as the "definitive", best, most accurate, or whatever else some people do. No more than I am sure many will not toss out W20 when W5 comes out.

                            Just because people or some books/editions want to sweep stuff under the rug or not include it, (or as much, or whatever the case is), does not mean it never existed and/or still does.

                            Garou are not superheroes. They are horrific monsters that have some positive traits.
                            It is just hard to have a discussion when everyone is speaking from different editions/headcanons, so having a some sort of baseline in these conversations is important. W20 is generally well received, so its used.

                            The issue I am speaking with that statement is more about people coming stating that Fenrir are neo-nazi to a wolf, or that Fianna are all drunks. Or that Furies are all man-murdering misandries. It isn't that those things don't exist in the current setting, but that the older editions could be inaccurate of their native cultures or just freakin' weird like the Furies in 2nd ed becoming far more pronounced in their hatered of men.

                            Garou are people, they are all shades of gray. Just like vampires and any other supernatural creature.


                            My gallery.

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                            • Originally posted by Damian May View Post


                              All of the above is what my books say. And my collection goes back to 1st Ed.

                              Changing Ways contains some severely wacky shit that we know for sure was inserted after the fact by Parawolf for god knows what reason. Thats just the facts.
                              So, your collection does not have an active Black Fury mass murdering men, (150 at least I think), with the Totem's express blessing?

                              Or contain a Rite to restore the ability to have children that is only used on women, but withheld from men.

                              Or another that literally causes a penis to shrivel and rot due to sleeping around, but the Black Furies would never suggest a woman have multiple partners.

                              I also find the views from Way of the Wolf rather interesting. Can anyone look that up for me, just in case Im off here. Specifically page 32. Not really sure in what other sense "force" can mean here. But wait... is this in a 1st ed book?

                              Not trying to be an ass here, but maybe the idea you and others have and had is not exactly 100% correct.
                              Last edited by Beckett; 01-12-2018, 09:48 PM.

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                              • Originally posted by Ana Mizuki View Post

                                It is just hard to have a discussion when everyone is speaking from different editions/headcanons, so having a some sort of baseline in these conversations is important. W20 is generally well received, so its used.

                                The issue I am speaking with that statement is more about people coming stating that Fenrir are neo-nazi to a wolf, or that Fianna are all drunks. Or that Furies are all man-murdering misandries. It isn't that those things don't exist in the current setting, but that the older editions could be inaccurate of their native cultures or just freakin' weird like the Furies in 2nd ed becoming far more pronounced in their hatered of men.

                                Garou are people, they are all shades of gray. Just like vampires and any other supernatural creature.
                                I believe that restricting conversations to just W20, (or whatever version is appropriate), is far worse in confussing things, both because it ignors facts, history, and evidence (which could be just because somene is mot aware of it) and because to be honest, the 20th Ed books are not all out yet. Who knows what could change, or BE CHANGED in whatever new books come.

                                Im not trying to be a jerk, but by your own rational, Changing Ways, a published(ish) book has set much of these complaints in stone. But also remember thst the 20th editions are meant firstly to be compendiums of all the previous material, and Onyx Path suggested from the beginning going back to the older materials for more information on subjects not fully covered.

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