Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Changing Ways thoughts

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Ana Mizuki
    started a topic Changing Ways thoughts

    Changing Ways thoughts

    This book has been something I've waited for.... shit, YEARS. So here are some surface thoughts on the book;

    -The Metis section is legit great, focusing on the mentality a metismight have to the use of them. It is really well portrayed how effect up things can get with metis. One pretty funny addition to the chapter is the whole focus on whether two garou of the same gender can boink. Mostly, the answer is yes,unless they need to breed asap.

    -Lupus section is so far good, so far really well researched, but it does use the word alpha.

    I have yet to delve deeply into the the first chapter and the chapters after the lupus one, but so far it is good.

    Only two points of contetion I have so far are two of the new deformities. Nervous Changer should be a flaw and not a deformity, as it would more relate to all metis who get nervous. As for Spiritual Deformity, it to me feels a bit too much for garou to swallow. No totem bond, can best access through wyrmy places. Yeah, no, that is not only screaming WYRMY too much and making the metis pretty poor as a spiritual guardian.

  • CeltSPZ
    replied
    Originally posted by Onkwe View Post

    The elders of of my tribes.

    Yea I had my own family, which was reinforced by professors for this. I haven't bothered to look for books or websites to back me up because it was stuff I grew up with as well. Its just a matter of a "cultural backpack".

    Leave a comment:


  • Onkwe
    replied
    Originally posted by PewPew View Post

    Onkwe could you cite sources? It's a topic with a lot of bias and I'd like something concrete.
    The elders of of my tribes.

    Garou are Garou, but the way Changing Ways has it written is kind of stupid and lacks any sort of nuance or reflection of why the Wendigo would change their ways in regards to the Metis. There's a lot of other ways to make them have negative traits than making them into Blood Quantum warriors and projecting Euro-American 'Barbarian' stereotypes onto them.
    Last edited by Onkwe; 02-04-2018, 10:24 PM.

    Leave a comment:


  • CeltSPZ
    replied
    Originally posted by Ana Mizuki View Post

    Yeah, even just having the Wendigo POV mention -why- they do not follow their kins' way would have been helpful. For me, I just like adding Finnish culture stuff into Fenrir because my country is not that well known. But just "The metis are not blessed by the spirits, like some of our medicine people are. Their deformities are always unnatural and signs of Gaia's disfavour" would have said enough to justify the harsh treatment. Rather than saying basically nothing.

    I think this book actually did a much better job than Guardians of the Caerns, in that it focused on what education metis might have or how their treatment varied across the board even among the same tribe. Fenrir being accepting of those worthy to keeping metis as attack dogs depending on the area they are from makes sense. Guardians of the Caerns focused too much on the angst and the narrator, rather than factoids like education or alternative takes on each tribe. I do think having a negative and positive Children of Gaia would have worked, but I think the tribe being a hot mess is pretty much canon now.

    To me, it also had more examples of varied metis treatment outside beatings and mental abuse, discussing the fact that metis could easily be zealots due to how they are taught and the aformentioned attack dog and cannon fodder metis.

    I can pretty much agree with everything in this post. I actually want to make a pack of the attack Fenrir Metis and have my players stumble on them.

    Leave a comment:


  • Ana Mizuki
    replied
    Originally posted by CeltSPZ View Post

    For me, they could have thought up a more Garou cultured reason (like fear of abandoning their kin, or a huge respect for the litany) that didn't lean on human racial issues, or flew directly in the face of kin culture. If I had a dime for the amount of times people I met made assumptions on human cultures based on the Garou tribes, I'd .....be able to get a pizza? You get my point though its been too many (I brought this concern up in the Shattered Dreams KS when it was mentioned that the book depicts Europeans as the first Homo sapiens to enter the Americas). To depict the Wendigo as rather Spartan in this case can cause poor assumptions about cultures that are often misunderstood (For better or worse).

    Personally I just wanted to see more tribes have a generally more negative view of the metis, if the metis really are meant to be this oppressed breed that faces a great deal of discrimination. In Revised it felt more like if you just avoid the Fangs, Talons, and Fianna you were going to be fine.
    Yeah, even just having the Wendigo POV mention -why- they do not follow their kins' way would have been helpful. For me, I just like adding Finnish culture stuff into Fenrir because my country is not that well known. But just "The metis are not blessed by the spirits, like some of our medicine people are. Their deformities are always unnatural and signs of Gaia's disfavour" would have said enough to justify the harsh treatment. Rather than saying basically nothing.

    I think this book actually did a much better job than Guardians of the Caerns, in that it focused on what education metis might have or how their treatment varied across the board even among the same tribe. Fenrir being accepting of those worthy to keeping metis as attack dogs depending on the area they are from makes sense. Guardians of the Caerns focused too much on the angst and the narrator, rather than factoids like education or alternative takes on each tribe. I do think having a negative and positive Children of Gaia would have worked, but I think the tribe being a hot mess is pretty much canon now.

    To me, it also had more examples of varied metis treatment outside beatings and mental abuse, discussing the fact that metis could easily be zealots due to how they are taught and the aformentioned attack dog and cannon fodder metis.

    Leave a comment:


  • CeltSPZ
    replied
    I knew about a lot of the First Nation views of disability before, through both college and my own family. I used to go on rants about how I could see the Uktena and Wendigo being more accepting of the Metis, but it felt there were just too many tribes that were according to their tribe books. For the record not only did Wendigo kin view disabilities and variations this way, but Uktena kin too (for example many Meso-American cultures viewed Down Syndrome as a sign of the Jaguar and held those individuals as sacred).

    For me, they could have thought up a more Garou cultured reason (like fear of abandoning their kin, or a huge respect for the litany) that didn't lean on human racial issues, or flew directly in the face of kin culture. If I had a dime for the amount of times people I met made assumptions on human cultures based on the Garou tribes, I'd .....be able to get a pizza? You get my point though its been too many (I brought this concern up in the Shattered Dreams KS when it was mentioned that the book depicts Europeans as the first Homo sapiens to enter the Americas). To depict the Wendigo as rather Spartan in this case can cause poor assumptions about cultures that are often misunderstood (For better or worse).

    Personally I just wanted to see more tribes have a generally more negative view of the metis, if the metis really are meant to be this oppressed breed that faces a great deal of discrimination. In Revised it felt more like if you just avoid the Fangs, Talons, and Fianna you were going to be fine.
    Last edited by CeltSPZ; 02-02-2018, 07:51 PM.

    Leave a comment:


  • Ana Mizuki
    replied
    Originally posted by PewPew View Post
    Just because the humans do something doesn't mean the garou do. Greece has always been patriarchal, and look at the tribe they spawned. The Get have a completely reversed take of Norse mythology with fenrir being a top bloke with Odin et al being diabolical. If the wendigo practice beliefs very different from their human populace, that isn't so significant, though it'd be nice if they singled it out and mentioned it for the uninformed. Not to mention the wendigo make up a tiny, tiny, tiny percentage of native americans, who are themselves less than 5% of the canadian population and are significantly less in the US.

    Onkwe could you cite sources? It's a topic with a lot of bias and I'd like something concrete.
    To me, there is a world of difference between having Fenrir break cultural traditions (though, I rather add them back myself) than Wendigo. Because the nordic voice is much easier to find and is a much more loud one than the First Nations voice. Especially for those that live outside America, that voice is often given secondhand if at all. As sad as it is, WtA has been one of the more serious sources for First Nations knowledge for me rather than just the surface level.

    So the metis Wendigo part -only- saying 'Wendigo hate white people and think they are purer than others' is doing a great disservice to the First Nations people the tribe is based on. Because an alternative voice is not as easy to find as a nordic one.

    And yes, the Sami are here, but they aren't the American cultures Wendigo are based on.

    Leave a comment:


  • Saur Ops Specialist
    replied
    Originally posted by PewPew View Post
    Just because the humans do something doesn't mean the garou do. Greece has always been patriarchal, and look at the tribe they spawned. The Get have a completely reversed take of Norse mythology with fenrir being a top bloke with Odin et al being diabolical. If the wendigo practice beliefs very different from their human populace, that isn't so significant, though it'd be nice if they singled it out and mentioned it for the uninformed. Not to mention the wendigo make up a tiny, tiny, tiny percentage of native americans, who are themselves less than 5% of the canadian population and are significantly less in the US.
    Those differences were due to the creators picking up random bits of mythology, deciding to make werewolves off of them, and then having to work around the consequences. On the other end of the spectrum, you have a lot of other tribes; Bone Gnawers and Glass Walkers are the most visible of them, but the Shadow Lords and Silver Fangs are deeply embroiled in feudal practices (the Hakken Shadow Lords in particular), and the Silent Striders didn't have an inherently acrimonious relationship with Ancient Egyptian culture, having the benefit of appearing like Anpw in Crinos. We also have long-standing lore that the Croatan, Uktena, and Wendigo were closer to humanity in the Americas than the other tribes in the Old World, to the point of never getting around to the Impergium, so there's also that to consider.

    Leave a comment:


  • PewPew
    replied
    Just because the humans do something doesn't mean the garou do. Greece has always been patriarchal, and look at the tribe they spawned. The Get have a completely reversed take of Norse mythology with fenrir being a top bloke with Odin et al being diabolical. If the wendigo practice beliefs very different from their human populace, that isn't so significant, though it'd be nice if they singled it out and mentioned it for the uninformed. Not to mention the wendigo make up a tiny, tiny, tiny percentage of native americans, who are themselves less than 5% of the canadian population and are significantly less in the US.

    Onkwe could you cite sources? It's a topic with a lot of bias and I'd like something concrete.

    Leave a comment:


  • Ana Mizuki
    replied
    Originally posted by Onkwe View Post

    I know this was way back, but I can answer this. Among a lot of Native peoples the Wendigo would have taken kin with, disabled people were considered blessed. It was seen as the Creator had taken something from them so they could be gifted with more spiritual power. Intersex people, little people, etc were often medicine people. So this makes no fucking sense except, IMO, as trying to turn the Wendigo into more of an 'asshole tribe' to balance out the noble savagery that was prevalent in earlier editions.
    Thank you so much for the information ^^

    This is why I think doing research on how cultures that have garou tribes tied to them, is so important. The surface level 'no metis until whites came' does not tell you anything new and at the same time doesn't tell of what sort of culture Wendigo would have with disabled members of their tribe. I don't mean that garou culture and the human cultures should be entirely similar, but rooting out things like how they deal with disability and then using it to inform what the tribes should think of their metis members, would give a more nuanced and varied collection of opinions.

    Leave a comment:


  • Onkwe
    replied
    Originally posted by Ana Mizuki View Post
    The Wendigo focus on metis is really stereotypical. There were no metis among them until the whites came, because they killed them at birth. Given the chapter out and out states that metis are abused disabled children, here I would have liked more research on how the native american nations Wendigo consider their own actually handled disabled children.
    I know this was way back, but I can answer this. Among a lot of Native peoples the Wendigo would have taken kin with, disabled people were considered blessed. It was seen as the Creator had taken something from them so they could be gifted with more spiritual power. Intersex people, little people, etc were often medicine people. So this makes no fucking sense except, IMO, as trying to turn the Wendigo into more of an 'asshole tribe' to balance out the noble savagery that was prevalent in earlier editions.

    Leave a comment:


  • Wilson
    replied
    Originally posted by Ana Mizuki View Post
    One thing I realised that is missing in the lupus section, is discussion on wolfdogs, coywolves and such. With modern knowledge of wolves, especially in USA, it could have been very interesting to consider.
    My current character is a lupus ragabash, born a red wolf in North Carolina. A rude Uktena said he was Nuwisha, and the only thing that convinced the Uktena otherwise is that my character's mother is a Theurge. But there's probably coyote blood somewhere in his ancestry, which is what raised the Uktena's eyebrow in the first place. So yeah, that would be an interesting question to explore.

    Leave a comment:


  • Heavy Arms
    replied
    Well, we're not getting a reset anyway. It was meant more as an observation than anything else.

    As for the applicability of social issues to games? Well, actually, it does help to address them if you're going to have groups that care about them in the game. Presenting groups like the Tribes in a coherent (not homogeneous, there can be internal disagreements for lots of hooks and such) fashion helps people playing the game.

    If you present a group with to contradictory mainstream beliefs, and don't clarify how the group deals with that in their methods, traditions, and norms, then STs don't know how to present them, and players don't know how to react to things.

    For example, the Black Furies have two contradictory mainstream beliefs: "Males can't be members of the Tribe," and, "Metis males can be members of the Tribe." We have a coherent explanation for this: Pegasus allows it as a spiritual matter, and the Furies respond to this by slotting Metis into the crones due to their infertility to fit them into their larger traditions and norms. If we didn't have that and were just told that there aren't male Furies, but there are male Metis Furies... not having even a simple explanation of why that's the case, and how it looks in practice would make the concept extremely frustrating to use in play.

    Just saying that the Black Furies fight the oppression of women without explaining what that means in a significant fashion so groups can decide themselves doesn't really work. The game brought the social issue of feminism into the game already. Giving zero framework for what "fighting the oppression of women," means isn't helping people run the game.

    If you cut out this sort of thing... well you might as well be playing Forsaken. This isn't meant as a judgement. Forsaken goes the route of Tribes that don't directly incorporate human social issues, and each Pack and Protectorate has it's own politics so the players and ST can include whatever they want to address in game. Some people prefer that. Some people prefer the WoD's tying of splats to real world issues. Some people want one or the other based on their mood.

    But since we're talking about WtA, we're talking about a game with splats that are tied to these issues. Not exploring them at all in the text is unhelpful as not exploring some of the things you talked about. They're also not mutually exclusive either. We have books like W20 Rage Across the World to look at more example Caerns, or W20 Umbra to talk about chiminage and stuff to do on spirit quests. If you want to make the case that the books that should be addressing all that stuff didn't focus on things well? Cool, you probably have a strong point. Changing Ways failed to do lots of things well. But it certainly is a book that's a logical place to explore some of these things in more detail.

    Leave a comment:


  • Black Fox
    replied
    This is why it is best for some of these issues to be decided at individual gaming groups rather than presenting an official position. Most of these social issues have zero applicability to games. Each group should be able to come up with something that works for them - if it becomes a thing in their game - and not have to worry about whether it conflicts or supports canon. Game materials should be more about things that can support the game that the individual STs are trying to create, not trying to force them to run their game along a certain line.

    Give more examples of appropriate Challenges for the ranks. Give more examples of good Chiminage ideas for spirits for various tasks. Give more examples of caern types along with appropriate caern powers that can be tapped. Give examples of common spirit quests in the umbra to accomplish certain things. Go into more detail on the totem bans and show how they can add to the game. Give more write up of septs along the length of the Sept of the Green in 1st/2nd edition corebook that go into detail on sept leadership styles, magic of the bawn, and showcase the differences between tribes.

    Those kind of things give tools to the ST to run their games and inspire them. It'll also answer a lot of common questions STs have when running the game. That helps people.

    Leave a comment:


  • CeltSPZ
    replied
    Resets scare me...while I may lose what I hate....I may also lose what I love in the game (I've got issues)

    Leave a comment:

Working...
X