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  • No One of Consequence
    replied
    ARDUS ENTERPRISES

    The wonderful world of waste management. Your trash is their treasure. Waste management and disposal is a huge industry, both in scale and in the amount of money involved. Two massive companies, the creatively named Waste Management, Inc. and their rival Republic Services, Inc. handle more than half of all garbage disposal in the United States. (Waste Management was the subject of the first episode of Undercover Boss, for those wanting a sanitized - npi - look at their operations.)

    If you want a good, basic and easy to read introduction to the topic, I recommend Elizabeth Royte's Garbage Land: On the Secret Trail of Trash. It looks at everything from trash collection and landfills to waste energy collection and recycling, mostly in the New York City area and it's surrounding environs, including certain political aspects of the industry, long term environmental effects, and industry corruption. Also, Susan Strasser's Waste and Want: A Social History of Trash, looking at the issue from a long term historical perspective that many may find useful for more historical oriented games. Other books on the subject include Heather Rogers's Gone Tomorrow: The Hidden Life of Garbage, Edward Humes's Garbology: Our Dirty Love Affair with Trash, and Adam Mintner's Junkyard Planet: Travels in the Billion-Dollar Trash Trade. There's also Stewart Edwards's My Rubbish Career: Municipal Waste Management, more of an insider look at things from the UK and Australian perspective.

    At the street level of things, with waste pick up, one aspect of the industry, especially in the American North East and Midwest regions, has been the presence of organized crime, mostly the Mafia, who would use trash hauling companies to launder money, as well as engage in price fixing, extortion of protection money and other illegal activities. This isn't as big of a thing now as it used to be, at least in New York, mostly owing to the crack down during the Giuliani era. Ironically, this allowed Waste Management to come in and now run most of the city's trash disposal that's not handled by the Dept. of Sanitation ("New York's Strongest"). But, according to Waste-Management World, it's still a problem in New Jersey. The tv series The Sopranos dealt with certain aspects of this, and it does offer an interesting potential origin for Ardus back in the 1950s and 60s.

    City's used to dump their trash in near by swamps or other undesirable areas, and a lot of these eventually became landfills. Many of these places closed after the creation of the EPA and introduction of environmental laws, but many of these places are now Superfund clean up sites. Many cities, such as NYC, now have to ship their garbage out of state, to new landfills typically established in poor rural communities. The towns and counties usually get a lot of money out of the deal for schools, scholarships and other projects, but there's the constant environmental concerns of ground water contamination and air pollution (often involving methane and other gasses). In the World of Darkness, odds are that Ardus deliberately looks for townships or rural areas near established Fomori Families (like Lovecraft's Whateley family or the freaks from the original Wrong Turn film), so as to increase their numbers. The other likely target for new landfills is probably any area that is suspected of holding a Garou cairn or other sacred site. This could easily turn into the sort of situation where a cairn's neighbors - perhaps majority kinfolk towns - being corrupted and turning into something similar to The Crazies (1973/2010) or Stephen King's "Children of the Corn". (Weirdly, a lot of the contracts for these landfills include clauses that forbid protesting from the citizenry once the place is up and running.)

    Outside of the US, Italy has apparently seen a "perfect storm" convergence of organized crime run waste companies and landfills with the discovery of an illegal dump site in Naples roughly the size of at least 30 soccer fields with 10 billion tons of waste, including radioactive material.

    Incinerators are still used for burning trash, and a lot of them end up in or next to poorer neighborhoods. While this get's decried as "environmental racism", it's really a matter of socioeconomics and income levels, similar to why landfills are located in poor rural areas of West Virginia or Pennsylvania rather than, say, Park Avenue or Beverly Hills. When it comes to NIMBY, money talks louder than anything else. While the pollution from incinerators has decreased dramatically over the past two decades, they aren't 100%, and any Ardus runs are likely worse, contributing to the creation of Smog Elementals, lung diseases, and other problems for the neighboring areas. The ash generated from incinerators still has to be disposed of, and at times no one wants it. The most infamous of these occurrences is the Khian Sea incident in the 1980s, where a ship full of incinerator ash from Pennsylvania eventually ended up dumping 10000 tons of ash into the Indian Ocean after being rejected from over a dozen countries.

    Transporting regular trash has it's own environmental problems, with garbage trucks being notorious fuel hogs and air polluters, and the trucks that take compacted trash to out of state landfills are known to leak liquid waste and spew litter from improperly secured loads. Undoubtably, Ardus's fleets are even worse than average in these regards.

    In the World of Darkness, it's entirely possibly for a massive pile of garbage to become sentient from spiritual possession, including by a Bane. I refer to such trash-fomori as Heaps, after the 1940s comic book character.

    Beyond normal trash, there's also the realm of toxic waste disposal, including dangerous chemicals, radioactive byproducts and biohazards. I've not yet read Eddie Girdner and Jack Smith's Killing Me Softly: Toxic Waste, Corporate Profit, and Environmental Justice, but it does seem to cover some of the history of the business and it's development after WW2. There's also Craig Colton and Peter Skinner's The Road to Love Canal: Managing Industrial Waste before the EPA. Ardus likely follows the above mentioned Italian method and hides as much toxic materials in their regular landfills as they're able to get away with. They probably also like to just stash it in underground locations, be they in out of the way places underneath a city, such as in C.H.U.D. (1984), letting it fall off a transport train like in Return of the Living Dead (1985) or burying it under new suburban housing developments like the real life Love Canal. Richard Newman's Love Canal: A Toxic History from Colonial Times to the Present gives a look at the city from a historical perspective, which may offer ideas for Storytellers wanting to delve more into the history of the area as part of a Rage Across New York based campaign.

    And, of course, toxic waste is a classic catalyst for the creation of fomori, with The Toxic Avenger (1984) and various aspects of Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles giving various potential examples. Also the take on Parasite from Superman: The Animated Series.

    Finally, for those wanting a really ludicrous tie between Ardus and Nastrum, I offer up Hasbro's 1991 G.I. Joe Eco-Warriors sub-line, with former corporate executive Cesspool offering weaponized toxic waste to COBRA. This may explain where those Bale-Fire flamethrowers come from.

    Added: Rather obscure and long out of print is the 1985 book Poisoning for Profit: The Mafia and Toxic Waste in America by Alan Block and Frank Scarpitti.
    Last edited by No One of Consequence; 03-03-2018, 07:46 PM.

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  • No One of Consequence
    replied
    BLACK DOG GAME FACTORY

    White Wolf's parody of itself. From a personal stand point, as much as I enjoy all the in jokes and self referential humor, it's always felt a little too on the nose for me. But, that aside, the RPG industry in general offers a lot to play with from a Wyrm/PENTEX perspective.

    Before I get into the obvious Satanism angle, I'll mention that RPGs grew out of the world of tabletop miniature wargaming, which goes all the way back to the Napoleonic Wars with the Prussian Army's Kreigsspiel system. Just before World War One, H.G. Welles (yes, that H.G. Welles) wrote Little Wars, a set of rules for wargaming with toy soldiers aimed at young boys (and girls as well, believe it or not). In the 1950s, wargaming became a sizable hobby, and the 1970s are often described as its golden age. It was medieval and fantasy style wargaming that eventually gave birth to Chainmail and eventually Dungeons & Dragons. Michael Witwer's Empire of Imagination is a good biography of Gary Gygax and how he helped develop D&D. Also of interest if David M. Elwalt's Of Dice and Men, and David Kushner & Koren Shadmi's graphic novel Rise of the Dungeon Master. I'll also note the Designers & Dragons tetralogy, a set of books giving a history of the roleplaying industry and profiles of most of the gaming companies for each decade of the 70s, 80s 90s and 2000s.

    (There's occasionally a weird thing in wargaming with some people becoming overly fascinated with WW2 Germany because of the design of their tanks and uniforms, among other things. This phenomenon even popped up in Palladium Games' Rifts RPG, with some players and even writers getting really invested in the genocidal fascists of the Coalition States just because they had all the cool "death head" armor and vehicles. One could easily read into this some sort of 4th Reich inspired conspiracy to attract new recruits.)

    Back in the early 80s, there was a backlash against D&D, claiming it encouraged Satan worship, delinquent behavior, suicide and other problems. The Jack Chick religious tract Dark Dungeons is famous among gaming circles, mostly because of how over the top ridiculous it is. Catholic Answers had an article titled The Nightmare World of Jack T. Chick, saying "Chick protray's a world full of paranoia and conspiracy where nothing is what it seems and nearly everything is a Satanic plot to lead people to hell." If that doesn't describe the World of Darkness to a T, I don't know what does. Dark Dungeons has apparently been made into a short film in 2014. I've never seen it, but heard that it's actually pretty awesome in a very surreal way that cranks the ludicrousness of the original up to 11 while playing everything completely straight.

    The other big one was Rona Jaffe's Mazes and Monsters, a thinly veiled fictionalization of lurid (*cough*made up*cough*) press accounts of James Egbert's attempted suicide at Michigan State University conflated with urban legends about D&D LARPing in the steam tunnels of Midwestern universities. It was made into a film staring Tom Hanks in 1982. William Dear, the private investigator who was hired by Egbert's parents to help find him during his 1979 disappearance/suicide attempt wrote his own account of the case and the news media's misrepresentation of it in his book, The Dungeon Master.

    Of course, in the World of Darkness, this is all probably true. RPGs really are produced by Satanists, Wyrm cultists, vampires and other freaks, all in order to corrupt people and lead them to damnation. You really can learn black magic from D&D, and you really do die if your character does. In my own games, all of the RPG companies are/were fronts for one dark conspiratorial force or another - PENTEX and other Wyrm cults, the Nephandi, Infernalist/Earthbound, vampires, Spectre cults, the Fomorians, space aliens, the 4th Reich, the cult of the Assassins, secret terrorists organizations, crab people, and more - each of them using their products to brainwash, indoctrinate and corrupt players for their own nefarious ends.

    All of these companies work their freelance writers (all under "work for hire" contracts that give the company ownership of all intellectual property they develop) like rented mules, having them write massive amounts in as little time as possible for a penny or two a word, until the writer burns out and is taken behind the building and given a bullet to the head (sometimes figuratively, sometimes literally). Because there are always a dozen eager fans ready to take their place. Those that don't burn out are likely to have become fully corrupted and willing servants of which ever force the company serves and be offered full time staff positions as editors or developers.

    Any sourcebooks detailing magic rules include "real" rituals and practices, which can include Satanic pacts, Lovecraftian summonings, prayers to dark gods, Wyrm rites, chaos magic, pornomancy and other fun things. Players properly obsessed with mastering the rules and mechanics of the game will inevitably unlock powerful dark magic, making them a threat to school mates, neighbors, and small animals.

    Finally, I'll offer up the long running comic series Knights of the Dinner Table, whose characters embody all the worst traits and stereotypes of the gamer community and its behaviors over the decades. Also of note are Dork Tower and Nodwick.


    (Coming next, Ardus, and a bit about education.)
    Last edited by No One of Consequence; 02-10-2018, 06:45 PM.

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  • No One of Consequence
    replied
    Originally posted by Fat Larry View Post


    I could've sworn I read something about Pentex being 100% against discrimination in any forms, and are as inclusive as can be.
    As opposed to the old days:




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  • Ramnesis
    replied
    "We were trying to create a dinosaur at one time that had the power of mind control."

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  • Fat Larry
    replied
    Originally posted by No One of Consequence View Post
    PROJECT: ILIAD


    And at the very far end of the spectrum, there's totally off the wall stuff like the concept art for dinosaur-human hybrid super soldiers from the abandoned Jurassic Park 4 script. Because if my First Team can't have a dinosaur man with a giant head and tiny little arms that are only good for firing pistols, then the Garou have won.
    My eyes are bleeding.

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  • No One of Consequence
    replied
    PROJECT: ILIAD

    Not a subsidiary, per say, but they're a lot of fun. And there's a number of interesting avenues to explore with the concept of super-soldiers. (Think of this as an intermission or aside.)

    There's actually been more than a few efforts at creating "super-soldiers" in the real world. You can learn about some of them here, from WhatCulture. MKUltra is probably the most famous, testing LSD and other psychotropic drugs as methods of disrupting enemy forces, enhanced interrogation and possible mind control/brainwashing. In addition to the military, a number of pharmaceutical companies, hospitals, health clinics and even prisons were apparently involved in the experiments. From a PENTEX perspective, this means ways to tie together Magadon, Autumn, and other companies for any paranoid Garou willing to dig deep enough and connect the dots. Jon Ronson's The Men Who Stare At Goats is a look at various military efforts to harness paranormal powers, including the MKUltra project. A lot of this goes more into Odyssey than Iliad, but can still offer possible backgrounds for Iliad personal.

    Solider (1998) is a decent if unremarkable sc-fi film, involving a project to raise children to be perfect, unthinkingly obedient and ruthless soldiers. It's the sort of thing PENTEX would certainly experiment with, likely using any orphanages they secretly run (or just buying the kids from overseas).

    Pumping the subjects full of drugs is a tried and true option. The character of Nuke from the Daredevil: Born Again storyline is a good example. (The character stealth-appears in season one of Netflix's Jessica Jones series, and is rumored to be in the forthcoming third season of Daredevil). Also good for ideas is the Juicer character class from the old Rifts RPG. The original edition's artwork included diagrams of how their drug injection harness worked, which was interesting. Rifts also had the Crazy character class, which used cybernetic brain implants in place of drugs. This presents a possible option for new types of cybernetic fomori to surprise PCs with.

    Moving up the ladder, there's Universal Soldier (1992), bringing dead bodies back to life as programed and enhanced special forces units. An even more out there take on this is in Return of the Living Dead 3 (1993), using the toxic chemicals from the first film to reanimate bodies, then bolting them to exoskeletons which can be locked in place to try to control them. (Yes, this works about as well as you'd expect.) I'm fairly certain that there are people at Iliad constantly trying to get this idea to work., most of them looking like Dr. Logan from Day of the Dead (1985).

    And at the very far end of the spectrum, there's totally off the wall stuff like the concept art for dinosaur-human hybrid super soldiers from the abandoned Jurassic Park 4 script. Because if my First Team can't have a dinosaur man with a giant head and tiny little arms that are only good for firing pistols, then the Garou have won.

    Added (Feb8)

    The Resident Evil films have a number of potential super-soldier ideas floating about in them, but for me, the most PENTEX-y would be Resident Evil: Apocalypse (the second one), with it's use of the Nemesis. The first film is also pretty good as far as ideas for a PENTEX Project: Iliad lab and some of it's ... less successful experiments.

    Season 4 of Buffy: The Vampire Slayer offers an interesting take on the Frankenstein's monster concept, complete with nuclear power core.

    Marvel's Weapon X program in it's various interpretations and incarnations also offer up some ideas. (Personally, I'm a fan of the presentation from Larry Hama's run on Wolverine in the 90s, with trained agents who may or may not already have powers being experimented on not just physically but also having their memories and personalities fiddled with and rewritten for various effects.)

    G.I.Joe back in the 80s had Serpentor, a bioengineered super soldier imprinted with the DNA, memories and actions of some of history's greatest conquerers. PENTEX could easily try something similar using the DNA and/or behavior patterns (or even damned souls) of serial killers and other monsters. The film ​Virtuosity (1995) plays on something similar to this idea.

    The TV series Dark Angel (2000-2002) and it's Manticore project are probably a little more Progenitors than PENTEX, but still offers some ideas to play around with.

    And finally, pretty much everything about the Cheiron Group in Hunter: The Vigil, as the idea of trying to implant parts of supernatural monsters into humans to give them powers seems like something Project: Iliad would try, and their Thaumatechnology endowments offer a number of ideas for potential Fomori powers.
    Last edited by No One of Consequence; 02-08-2018, 08:24 PM.

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  • No One of Consequence
    replied
    Originally posted by glamourweaver View Post

    Well keep in mind Conversion Therapy is way more effective at promoting depression, self-destruction, and suicide than it is at producing efficient, homogenous conforming members of society that the Weaver would actually want.
    I think if I was going to use it in my games, Homogeneity would be a Weaver thing, while Jim Fowler would be the head of a stand alone Wyrm cult using weird pseudo-Christian "drive the demons out" spiel to promise "cures" for homosexuality, rebellious teenagers, drug addiction, and the like as a way to corrupt victims, promote feelings of negative self-worth, cause suicides and other sucky things.

    (Note: Made a few updates to the list of potentially dead subsidiaries.)
    Last edited by No One of Consequence; 02-05-2018, 07:05 PM.

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  • Fat Larry
    replied
    Originally posted by glamourweaver View Post


    I mean, in the in-character text, I'd expect some anti-discrimination in hiring and firing rhetoric. It is the type of thing an HR department would say.
    That's true.

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  • glamourweaver
    replied
    Originally posted by No One of Consequence View Post
    Looking back at the write up in Freak Legion, it sort of feels more like a Weaver thing ("Conformity is good, Conformity is comfort") for some reason. But maybe that's just me.
    Well keep in mind Conversion Therapy is way more effective at promoting depression, self-destruction, and suicide than it is at producing efficient, homogenous conforming members of society that the Weaver would actually want.

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  • glamourweaver
    replied
    Originally posted by Fat Larry View Post


    I could've sworn I read something about Pentex being 100% against discrimination in any forms, and are as inclusive as can be.

    I may be wrong, but I do remember being thrown back a little bit, on how this gigantic wyrm-infested business pool of evil...is for LGBTQ rights.

    I'd search now, but I'm drinking way too much and watching football.

    I mean, in the in-character text, I'd expect some anti-discrimination in hiring and firing rhetoric. It is the type of thing an HR department would say. But Book of the Wyrm 20th Anniversary edition on pg 135 discusses "Normalities" which are fomori created by Homogeneuity, Incorporated.

    I would just tweak that to make it not a direct part of the "Pentex family", and make it a Church affiliated non-profit, that's financially supported by the King family (of King Breweries & Distilleries).

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  • Fat Larry
    replied
    Originally posted by glamourweaver View Post

    You mean the Employee Indoctrination Handbook? I can’t find any reference one way or the other.

    I could've sworn I read something about Pentex being 100% against discrimination in any forms, and are as inclusive as can be.

    I may be wrong, but I do remember being thrown back a little bit, on how this gigantic wyrm-infested business pool of evil...is for LGBTQ rights.

    I'd search now, but I'm drinking way too much and watching football.

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  • No One of Consequence
    replied
    NASTRUM ENTERPRISES
    I had a guaranteed military sale with ED-309 - renovation program, spare parts for twenty-five years - Who cares if it worked or not?!"
    Dick Jones, Robocop (1987)

    Described as "makers of weapons of mass destruction", I've always felt that this just sort of barely scratched the surface of Nastrum's scope and activities. Clearly, they're a weapons manufacturing company, but in contrast to Herculean, who make personal firearms, they make large scale military hardware, apparently specializing in missiles and aircraft. This would appear to make them primarily an aerospace company with a focus on military contracts.

    We'll start with real world aerospace companies: Lockheed-Martin (one of, if not the, largest defense contractor in the world), Northrop-Grumman, Boeing's Defense Space & Security division, Raytheon (world's largest producer of guided missiles), and the UK's BAE Systems. All of these have Wikipedia pages giving an overview of their history and operations, as well as links to those companies that merged to form these entities or that they've bought, sold and otherwise been involved with.

    Back in the Cold War, Lockheed started something called The Skunk Works, their Advanced Development Program, where they developed spy planes and other aerospace tech for the CIA and military intelligence groups. This includes the U-2, the SR-71 Blackbird, the F-22, and more recently, the high beta compact nuclear fusion reactor. Ben Rich's Skunk Works: A Personal Memoir of My Years at Lockheed gives an interesting account of some of the company's declassified work from the 60s, 70s and 80s. Relatedly, Images of Aviation's photo-book about Area 51 is also interesting. They also have booklets on Edwards Airforce Base, various aircraft plants, and other topics.

    As a curious aside that seems very fitting for Werewolf and PENTEX, the name "Skunk Works" comes from the old Lil' Abner comic strip, in which one of the locals in Dogpatch, Kentucky, is constantly grinding up dead skunks and old shoes to go in the still at his "Skunk Works", killing scores of locals every year with the fumes, all for some mysterious, never specified purpose.

    One aspect of the American aerospace industry, especially in regards to the development of rocket technology, is the importation of Nazi scientists after WW2 as part of Operation/Project: Paperclip. While this did have the admirable goal of keeping them and their ideas out of the hands of Stalin, a number of them had their records white-washed to down play just how involved they were in the Nazi party. This might very well be the secret origins behind certain people and projects at Nastrum. Annie Jacobsen's Operation Paperclip gives a pretty good overview of it. She's also done books about Area 51 and the Pentagon's DARPA research group (The Pentagon's Brain), as well as one about military research into psychics and psychic phenomenon (Phenomena), all of which can tie into Nastrum, PENTEX, Project: Odyssey, Project: Twilight, and the World of Darkness in general.

    And speaking of Area 51, there's the long running conspiracy theory of the government - or parts of the military industrial complex, of which Nastrum would be a part - having recovered crashed UFOs/alien space craft and reverse engineering them to create super-advanced aircraft. The three names that come up in this most often are Roswell, NM, Hanger 18 at Wright-Patterson Air Force Base in OH, and Area 51 (part of the Nevada Test and Training Range, apparently known over the years by the names Homey Airport, Groom Lake, Dreamland and Paradise Ranch, among others). The theory of Zero Point Energy gets thrown around a lot in some of these theories, apparently as part of the development of military flying saucers. A two-part X-Files episode, Dreamland, involves Area 51 and a number of episodes involve or mention the supposed 1947 UFO crash at Roswell. If you want to work some of the "alien" aspects of the Wyrm mentioned in Book of the Wyrm 2nd ed or in certain Mage sourcebooks (or Delta Green, GURPS Black Ops, and others), this can be an interesting way to incorporate it.

    One of the biggest things in military aerospace over the past decade or so has been the development of Drones, originally as surveillance craft but increasingly being armed with more and more powerful weaponry. Hugh Gusterson's Drone: Remote Control Warfare looks at the technology from a number of different perspectives, both pro and con. There's also a documentary film Drone (2014). Movies like Eagle Eye (2008), Good Kill (2014) and Eye in the Sky (2015) also focus on the subject. Drone operators have been known to be recruited at video game conventions and trade shows, which offers a potential tie in with Tellus/Sunburst. It also has occurred to me that trying to slave a Bane into a drone's operating system might make for some sort of semi-autonomous attack craft that could aid First Teams in hunting Garou, not just in war zones but also in rural and even urban environments in the Americas, Europe, Australia and elsewhere.

    Because they're still an aerospace company (apparently), Nastrum probably still does more conventional aircraft work. It's possibly that they supply aircraft and/or engines to a small PENTEX owned airline (one that loves to overbook and then beat you senseless and drag you off the plane when a more important person wants your seat) and/or makes really high priced private jets that guzzle even more fuel than average. Michael Crichton's Airframe is a decent introduction to some of the ins and outs of the aircraft industry. Also, Thomas Petzinger's Hard Landing: The Epic Contest for Power and Profits that Plunged the Airlines into Chaos, Robert Gandt's Skygods: The Fall of PanAm, and Christie Negroni's The Crash Detectives: Investigating the World's Most Mysterious Air Disasters. There's also the issue of the CIA using private airlines for less than honorable purposes. See Christopher Robbins's Air America.

    I'll also mention, again, World of Darkness: Armory for nWoD/CoD, as it has a section on military hardware.

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  • No One of Consequence
    replied
    Thank you. That was informative. Depressing, but informative.

    From rereading Homogeniety's (and isn't that a Weaver-ish word) write up in Freak Legion, they sound like the sort of outfit that would've gone under at least a decade ago, if for no other reason than their leader was either murdered by one of his victims or quietly thrown into a wood chipper by a PENTEX cleaning crew because he was too sloppy even for their standards.

    As I said, it's one of those things that, to me at least, feels a lot more Weaver-ish than Wyrm-ish, as it plays on people's desires for social acceptance and wanting to be "normal", and I think turning into one of some Stepford Wife/Child Drone, all of whom act alike, dress alike and gradually start to look alike, all while having no real sex-drive outside of scheduled procreation time, seems more horrible in such a situation.

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  • glamourweaver
    replied
    Originally posted by Fat Larry View Post
    Not according to the recently released Pentex handbook.
    You mean the Employee Indoctrination Handbook? I can’t find any reference one way or the other.

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  • glamourweaver
    replied
    Originally posted by No One of Consequence View Post
    Conversion Therapy
    I remember this from 10 and 20 years ago, and it gets mention with Homogeniety Incorporated in Freak Legion, but I have no idea if this is even still a thing or not. If anyone in the LGBT community or otherwise knowledgeable about the current state of this can offer information, I'd appreciate it.
    Yes it is. It has no more credence in mainstream psychology for sexual orientation, but it has its advocates, including voluntary programs for adults, and (usually church run) camps for adolescents who may be sent their non-voluntarily by their parents. There are reports from survivors of kids being subjected to physical torture as part of the process as recently as the 00s.

    They work to keep low profile in the US now. A year or two ago, Jeremy Jordan, the actor who plays Winn on Supergirl, went public with a family dispute over his aunt and uncle sending his cousin (who was a gay adolescent) to a conversion therapy camp against her will - he was drawing unwanted attention to it specifically to get her out (it worked).

    It's illegal to subject a minor to conversion therapy in only 9 states.

    You still have some mainstream advocates for it for transgender children. They're in the minority, but they number enough to not be treated as complete crackpots by the psychiatric establishment like anyone suggesting it to change sexual orientation is now.
    Last edited by glamourweaver; 02-04-2018, 01:24 PM.

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