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  • Armor Gifts

    Hello everyone again, this thread is about the armor gifts: Luna’s Armor, Troll Skin, Steel Fur and Wyrm Hide.
    All of them are rank 2 gifts, all give soak dice, but they don't seem all to be at the same level but still may be used in conjunction increeasing their power level to unimaginable heights.

    Luna's Armor: Spends Gnosis and needs a whole round to be activated. The effect is protection from silver and increeased soak for all other kind of damage. This gift is extremely powerful rank 2 gift with the only drawback that its almost impossible to activate while a fight has already started, aka ambush.

    Troll Skin: Spends Gnosis, it's not clear if it takes an action to activate, you can just assume it is ashapeshifting action that activates with Gnosis. Adds soak on all kind of damage except silver and +1 difficulty on all social rolls except intimidation. It's by all means a worse Luna's Armor, the only advantage I find in it is that you can still use stealth without penalty while activated.

    Steel Fur: Spends Willpower, still unclear if it takes action, though the ''focusing'' word indicates just that. Also unclear if the gift may be used to soak silver, the opposite can just be assumed.
    This is an amazing example of a worse, yet lower in cost, Luna's Armor that can actually be used with Rage actions in a round, if only it didn't have this Dexterity difficulty penalty. Also has added out of tribe social difficulty penalty, which I find amusing somehow, but a gift that gives too many penalties I don' think it is something that should be a ''must''. Oh and works only in furry situations.Though you probably can shapeshift and use the gift at the same time.

    Wyrm Hide: The W20 version of this gift is actually the outdated 1st edition WtA version of the gift with an added effect.
    So I will use the common system of the Gaian armor gifts with the standard soak per success system without the ''max three successes'' restriction.
    The gift is the Wyrmish version of Troll Skin, the only difference is that it actually has a minor advantage, that the Dancer can heal lethal as if it was bashing (right on your face Combat Healing !!!)
    AND remain in Crinos when all health levels fill up with lethal. That makes me pause for a while thinking how powerful this gift really is, or isn't.
    Also not clear if the user may soak silver, since there is no mention about it, you can just assume that he can't.

    After this sum up I thought to make a discussion about what you think about the various versions of armor gifts and if you might change something in their system.







  • #2
    Originally posted by Story Letter View Post
    Troll Skin: Spends Gnosis, it's not clear if it takes an action to activate, you can just assume it is ashapeshifting action that activates with Gnosis. Adds soak on all kind of damage except silver and +1 difficulty on all social rolls except intimidation. It's by all means a worse Luna's Armor, the only advantage I find in it is that you can still use stealth without penalty while activated.
    It doesn't soak silver but its activation time is instantaneous, so it still may be worth your while. And Gets don't have Luna's Armor as tribal gift, so it's definitively convenient for them.

    Steel Fur: Spends Willpower, still unclear if it takes action, though the ''focusing'' word indicates just that. Also unclear if the gift may be used to soak silver, the opposite can just be assumed.
    This is an amazing example of a worse, yet lower in cost, Luna's Armor that can actually be used with Rage actions in a round, if only it didn't have this Dexterity difficulty penalty. Also has added out of tribe social difficulty penalty, which I find amusing somehow, but a gift that gives too many penalties I don' think it is something that should be a ''must''. Oh and works only in furry situations.Though you probably can shapeshift and use the gift at the same time.
    The text doesn't speak about spending a turn so I believe it's instantaneous. No specification on silver should mean that normal soaking rules apply (= no soaking), but it still has the advantage of a better roll for the related tribe (Glass Walkers will probably have Science rather than survival or primal urge) and the awesome expenditure of Willpower instead of Gnosis, that not only means you can still spend rage (as you noted) but also that you'll recover it with ease.

    Wyrm Hide: The W20 version of this gift is actually the outdated 1st edition WtA version of the gift with an added effect.
    So I will use the common system of the Gaian armor gifts with the standard soak per success system without the ''max three successes'' restriction.
    Since the gift is actually giving you the better part of a third level Gaian gift I think it's balanced even without raising the dice cap. And no, same argument as earlier: it shouldn't give silver protection.

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    • #3
      Originally posted by Maris Streck View Post

      It doesn't soak silver but its activation time is instantaneous, so it still may be worth your while. And Gets don't have Luna's Armor as tribal gift, so it's definitively convenient for them.
      Instaneous you mean, you can still make an action while activating ? Or that it needs an action ? Coz that doesn't make it different than LA, only just worse. Instant action only makes it better if you play first so you may have some added soak for a round before you turn offensive, though we both know that with werewolf you rarely have more than a round to do anything.

      Originally posted by Maris Streck View Post
      The text doesn't speak about spending a turn so I believe it's instantaneous. No specification on silver should mean that normal soaking rules apply (= no soaking), but it still has the advantage of a better roll for the related tribe (Glass Walkers will probably have Science rather than survival or primal urge) and the awesome expenditure of Willpower instead of Gnosis, that not only means you can still spend rage (as you noted) but also that you'll recover it with ease.
      Indeed I am reconsidering this case, that only makes LA better if you have time to prepare, with more expensive fuel to activate it.

      Originally posted by Maris Streck View Post
      Since the gift is actually giving you the better part of a third level Gaian gift I think it's balanced even without raising the dice cap. And no, same argument as earlier: it shouldn't give silver protection.
      I also mentioned that it nullifies a higher rank gift that the Spirals do have in their arsenal (aka combat healing) and that causes a bit trouble. The effect is still not very good, but for a rank 2 gift it does give a lot, if you keep the revised roll system and not the 1st edition one.

      An idea I had was to lower the effect of all armor gifts to 3 dice standard with a special effect, though I would like to further discuss this case on if it sounds satisfying to the players. Luna's armor soaks silver damage, Troll skin adds health levels, Steel fur reduces lethal to bashing from firearms, and Wyrm Hide heals lethal as if it was bashing.

      Or something like that.
      Last edited by Story Letter; 01-16-2018, 05:13 PM.

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      • #4
        Originally posted by Story Letter View Post
        Instaneous you mean, you can still make an action while activating ? Or that it needs an action ? Coz that doesn't make it different than LA, only just worse. Instant action only makes it better if you play first so you may have some added soak for a round before you turn offensive, though we both know that with werewolf you rarely have more than a round to do anything.
        It doesn't actually say that you need an action to activate it and I couldn't find any general rule about gifts in W20 about the need to dedicate an action to invoke them (thought there was, but I didn't find it in the manual), so I just think you can activate it without expending an action. The Gnosis requirement means that you can't spend rage in that turn, but that's it - correct me if I'm wrong anyway.

        I also mentioned that it nullifies a higher rank gift that the Spirals do have in their arsenal (aka combat healing) and that causes a bit trouble.
        Not exactly nullifying... Wyrm Hide treats all the lethal as bashing if you take it while the gift is active and activation requires a little blasphemous rite (like a weird dance), combat healing allows you to regenerate even the damage that you took when the effect was off (like a stealth attack). The description seems to imply that it would require a bit of time (1 turn?) to activate Wyrm Hide, but there's no mention of it in the rules so I don't really know, I usually prioritize the lore description.

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        • #5
          Originally posted by Maris Streck View Post

          It doesn't actually say that you need an action to activate it and I couldn't find any general rule about gifts in W20 about the need to dedicate an action to invoke them (thought there was, but I didn't find it in the manual), so I just think you can activate it without expending an action. The Gnosis requirement means that you can't spend rage in that turn, but that's it - correct me if I'm wrong anyway.


          This point of view may change gift activation massively. Yes indeed there is no indication, only assumptions.
          Yup you are correct about Gnosis and Rage, only Steel Fur is good with extra actions.


          Originally posted by Maris Streck View Post
          Not exactly nullifying... Wyrm Hide treats all the lethal as bashing if you take it while the gift is active and activation requires a little blasphemous rite (like a weird dance), combat healing allows you to regenerate even the damage that you took when the effect was off (like a stealth attack).
          Unfortunately, the ''Black Spiral also treats lethal damage as bashing'' line doesn't indicate that .




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          • #6
            Originally posted by Story Letter View Post
            This point of view may change gift activation massively. Yes indeed there is no indication, only assumptions.
            Yup you are correct about Gnosis and Rage, only Steel Fur is good with extra actions.
            Yes, I am aware. I gave it a lot of thoughts today and I think it's probably more convenient to consider the use of a gift as a standard action, unless otherwise specified (if a gift says it's reflexive then it's reflexive). This makes Troll Skin generally worse than Luna's Armor even if it can still be more useful in certain rare situations (if you use it in the first action of combat you can use the extra soak for every additional attack coming on you).


            Unfortunately, the ''Black Spiral also treats lethal damage as bashing'' line doesn't indicate that .
            It doesn't, but I think it was the author's intention since it's an armor gift; this interpretation also doesn't make combat healing completely worthless, even if its utility is still greatly reduced for a dancer. Most of the sources of lethal damage are mundane, though (other Garou will dish out aggravate or silver damage), so that "lethal to bashing" part mostly helps you when you're in breed form on when fighting unprepared opponents (like vampires with regular bullets).

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Maris Streck View Post

              Yes, I am aware. I gave it a lot of thoughts today and I think it's probably more convenient to consider the use of a gift as a standard action, unless otherwise specified (if a gift says it's reflexive then it's reflexive). This makes Troll Skin generally worse than Luna's Armor even if it can still be more useful in certain rare situations (if you use it in the first action of combat you can use the extra soak for every additional attack coming on you).


              Well there is a reason that armor gifts are only Rank 2, though they become really powerful at highr ranks and in pack situations things get messy.

              9 successes on LA is not very often but when it happens the game can break, and its only a rank 2 gift. Especially if you use the rule of soaking lethal in breed form, you can pass through a hailstorm of silver bullets and just undust your cloak, if you wear any.

              Now another question that rises up, what about gifts like troll skin and breed form, how does it affect silver soaking ?
              In the core book is stated that you can soak silver if it comes by a source that the character would normaly soak in that form, like silver batton or spoon, in that case everything is clear.
              Though in later supplements it is stated (I think is in Changing Ways) that homids and lupus soak lethal in breed form, that means that they can soak even silver bullets, do gifts like Troll Skin add to soak silver in breed forms?


              Originally posted by Maris Streck View Post
              It doesn't, but I think it was the author's intention since it's an armor gift; this interpretation also doesn't make combat healing completely worthless, even if its utility is still greatly reduced for a dancer. Most of the sources of lethal damage are mundane, though (other Garou will dish out aggravate or silver damage), so that "lethal to bashing" part mostly helps you when you're in breed form on when fighting unprepared opponents (like vampires with regular bullets).
              It does make logical sense, like a natural kevlar, it ould be nice to dongrade aggravate to lethal from natural attacks too :P

              Appart from that, I do believe that Steel Fur shouldn't give dexterity penalty.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Story Letter View Post
                9 successes on LA is not very often but when it happens the game can break, and its only a rank 2 gift. Especially if you use the rule of soaking lethal in breed form, you can pass through a hailstorm of silver bullets and just undust your cloak, if you wear any.
                Sometime the spirits make your life awfully easier. Say your prayers to RNGesus every day!

                Now another question that rises up, what about gifts like troll skin and breed form, how does it affect silver soaking ?
                Hrrrm. Troll Skin says that damage from silver is unsoakable and since it's specified I'd say no, even if for non-aggravated silver damage. It would make sense even in the other way though. Steel fur and Wyrm Hide should definitely let you soak silver in breed form, but... Steel Fur only works in lupus, and how many Lupus Glass Walkers are we going to have in the world? Five, tops?

                It does make logical sense, like a natural kevlar, it ould be nice to dongrade aggravate to lethal from natural attacks too :P
                That would REALLY be grossly overpowered. XD It would mimic the level 6 "unstoppable warrior" gift.
                The extra armour still applies to aggravate damage, so it's not like it's going to be worthless anyway.

                Appart from that, I do believe that Steel Fur shouldn't give dexterity penalty.
                It's probably to balance the Willpower bonus. Armoring up and doing three other actions is quite a big bonus.

                Comment


                • #9
                  First, I didn't think that luna's armour really has a quantifiable glow that'd make it harder to stealth. I read it sorta like a gangrel's eyes of the beast, there's a glow, but it's not enough that you're a beacon for bullets in the dark, or anything as such.

                  I didn't read anything into trolls skin that didn't make it worse than luna's armour. It's only real advantage is that it's used by Get, who get the endurance of hiemdal, which is insane, but would be better paired with luna's armour.

                  Weaver fur is an interesting beast that has pros and cons.

                  The wyrm thing, didn't that limit itself to three dice of protection or am i thinking of something else?

                  In any case, the best thing is that there's no rule that prevents you from using multiple soak gifts at once, other than acquiring the gifts in the first place. Luna's armour is the most common of the gifts, so I think a get or glass walker can acquire it without significant difficulty and be a very good tank before they leave fostern.


                  Be correct.

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by PewPew View Post
                    First, I didn't think that luna's armour really has a quantifiable glow that'd make it harder to stealth. I read it sorta like a gangrel's eyes of the beast, there's a glow, but it's not enough that you're a beacon for bullets in the dark, or anything as such.
                    That is debatable and up to the ST, for instance it could be dictated that a high success-mighty LA might glow like the moon, making stealth a no-no without the aid of a higher level gift, not by rules, but by mood logic.
                    Though there might still be dramatic situations that LA might increase difficulties of a character's stealth roll, or lower the alertness-Primal Urge rolls of adversaries.


                    Originally posted by PewPew View Post
                    I didn't read anything into trolls skin that didn't make it worse than luna's armour. It's only real advantage is that it's used by Get, who get the endurance of hiemdal, which is insane, but would be better paired with luna's armour.
                    Well there can be a vast gift combinations thats not appropriate to analyze in this topic. Mostly like a comparisson between the various Armour gifts and if there is a need to balance them and make them unique.

                    Originally posted by PewPew View Post
                    Weaver fur is an interesting beast that has pros and cons.

                    The wyrm thing, didn't that limit itself to three dice of protection or am i thinking of something else?
                    Yup the weaver fur is the best armor gift for in combat activation if the enemy has no silver.
                    The Wyrm thing, in W20 is a rework of 1st edition WtA, which unfortunately is not very useful against other Armor Gift user Garou if you cap it to 3 successes, which is not very practical.
                    Thats why for the sake of armor gift comparisson I am using the Revised WtA version which had no 3 success cap, though it did make the user more easily detectable by Sense Wyrm.

                    Originally posted by PewPew View Post
                    In any case, the best thing is that there's no rule that prevents you from using multiple soak gifts at once, other than acquiring the gifts in the first place. Luna's armour is the most common of the gifts, so I think a get or glass walker can acquire it without significant difficulty and be a very good tank before they leave fostern.
                    Well as gaian garou you can indeed use all armor gifs with the expediture of two Gnosis and one Willpower, but not in the same turn.
                    LA is not common gift, its just the Armor gift that is Tribal for more than one tribes, so it can appear more commonly in a high ranking pack.
                    We did have a Fenrir with Troll Skinn and LA, bad memories

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