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What if the Howlers had gotten help?

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  • What if the Howlers had gotten help?

    Note, this thread is using the White Howlers from the White Howler tribebook, which differs from the way the tribe was presented previously.

    Basically, the question in the title. What if other tribes HAD come to help the Howlers, what if they had a proper army to go into the Wyrm hole?

    Personally, I don't think they'd have won. By that time, the Wyrm was all ready a pretty constant threat to the world, given fomor were found among the Romans. That, and you cannot defeat the Wyrm by beating it hard.


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  • #2
    They would have been defiled: the history of the White howlers is a moral tale about the difference beetwen courage and wisdom. Getting in the fray, klaive in hand and war paint in the face is useless sometimes, you cannot fight the wyrm with sheer brutal Force, that's why the tribes are losing the war. To fight the wyrm you have to fight the dark side of human nature, not the wyrm spawns. Kill a maeljin and after a century or two a new one will rise, kill a Pentex director and someone else Will take his Place, the Hydra has many heads, you can't cut them all.
    ,
    Last edited by Undead rabbit; 01-18-2018, 10:00 AM.

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    • #3
      Unless of course the influence of the other Tribe changed how the alliance did things. Imagine how their perspective might have changed if the CoG offered them the hope of rebuilding their Kin. Or if the Uktena were there to help them rebind all the great Wyrm sites. It's not just that the White Howlers tried to use brutal force where they should have used wisdom, it's that brutal force was all they had left.


      Mage: The Ice-ension: An Epic Game of Reality on the Rink

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      • #4
        I, too, dislike the idea of 'punching out Cthlulhu.' Some things are too massive and evil to physically destroy- the fall of the White Howlers illustrates the larger challenges facing the entire Garou Nation.

        Similar to Ramnesis, I think it depends on who and how the aid manifests. If the immediate neighbors of the Howlers, the Get and Fianna, had come, I think things would have likely been even worse. A Get response, and likely the Fianna's too, would not have been so different from the Howler's method of dealing with the Black Spiral... instead of one tribe falling, Gaia might have lost three. I think the involvement of Stargazers, Uktena, Croatan, or Children of Gaia would have made for a very different story.

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        • #5
          Originally posted by The Laughing Stranger View Post
          I, too, dislike the idea of 'punching out Cthlulhu.' Some things are too massive and evil to physically destroy- the fall of the White Howlers illustrates the larger challenges facing the entire Garou Nation.

          Similar to Ramnesis, I think it depends on who and how the aid manifests. If the immediate neighbors of the Howlers, the Get and Fianna, had come, I think things would have likely been even worse. A Get response, and likely the Fianna's too, would not have been so different from the Howler's method of dealing with the Black Spiral... instead of one tribe falling, Gaia might have lost three. I think the involvement of Stargazers, Uktena, Croatan, or Children of Gaia would have made for a very different story.
          According to the Howler Tribebook, when the Stargazers received the Howlers' call, they took counsel and made divinations, foreseeing that grave harm would come to the Garou if they didn't assist the Howlers. Shortly afterwards, a supernova appeared in the night sky, altering the predictions - if the Stargazers joined the Howlers, both tribes would cease to exist, but if they did not, great harm would come to the werewolves.

          In the end, they chose not to go, a decision they still debate in private to this day.


          Scion 2E: What We Know - A wiki compiling info on second edition Scion.

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          • #6
            If I recall correctly, fighting the Wyrm, literally was exactly the thing that finally allowed it to break free and return to it's normal natural position in the Triat.

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            • #7
              I think even the Fianna or Get could have helped. Look at the situation the Howlers were in.

              Their Kin were gone, the next generation of Howlers would be a tiny fraction of the size of the current one and every warrior that fell was an irreplaceable loss. If they had a century or two they could reconnect themselves to the people of their homelands and beget new Kin, but the Wyrm wasn't going to give them that time. The Great Pit was on their doorstep and who knew how long they could keep it contained. Basically, they were at a point where they were only getting weaker and every delay meant less chance they could actually do anything meaningful.

              Change that dynamic enough that they could hope to one day be stronger and more prepared and they may have waited. Even enough raw manpower (wolfmanpower?) to hold the line and they might have taken the time to think and learn. Perhaps they wouldn't have gone in, or if they did they would have taken the time to actually plan.

              Or not. It could also be that they were already being lured in the moment they looked into the Pit. But then if that were the case then Wisdom didn't fail when they tried to bite the Wyrm, Wisdom failed when they looked over the edge in the first place.



              Mage: The Ice-ension: An Epic Game of Reality on the Rink

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              • #8
                Originally posted by Beckett View Post
                If I recall correctly, fighting the Wyrm, literally was exactly the thing that finally allowed it to break free and return to it's normal natural position in the Triat.
                You don't recall correctly. The Wyrm is likened to a major force of (un)nature, or in the case of the longtime Star Wars comparisons, the Dark Side of the Force. You don't beat that with a lightsaber and force pushes, you do it by laying the groundwork for everyone to change. Consider the recently re-released Okami; it has you go around and nurture the world on your way to righting wrongs. The Garou and Fera have to do more of this in order to lead the way to a path where they can confront the larger spirits of woe in the world. It weakens the hold of corruption and cuts the corrupt off from their source of power, allowing the noisome influences to be defeated, or at least kept at bay. This is how you punch out Cthulhu; making the world say not to it all at once, and then fighting. Doing it backwards just ends with dancing the spiral.

                (Also, the only way that's even close to canon of healing the Wyrm back into the balancer was a Gurahl-preferred rite in Apocalypse that required a lot of permanent Gnosis just to make the attempt. The only fighting there is to keep the smaller, sometimes relatively speaking, banes off of the ritemaster's back, since they were born of corruption, thrive in it, and don't want to see it leave.)

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                • #9
                  I'm not sure if Finding the pit and the call would change anything, that to change the history of the White Howlers would require changing things before hand that the response to all the request to go with them was that it was a vision of madness does make a certain amount of sense.

                  Honestly the White howlers are.. such a wierd little minitribe. Their numbers were always low it looks like they had such a small amount of territory. Even if there hadn't been a fall to the wyrm when the medieval migratory period sets in they are going to get murdered by the Fianna, Get, Silver Fangs..

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Lian View Post
                    I'm not sure if Finding the pit and the call would change anything, that to change the history of the White Howlers would require changing things before hand that the response to all the request to go with them was that it was a vision of madness does make a certain amount of sense.

                    Honestly the White howlers are.. such a wierd little minitribe. Their numbers were always low it looks like they had such a small amount of territory. Even if there hadn't been a fall to the wyrm when the medieval migratory period sets in they are going to get murdered by the Fianna, Get, Silver Fangs..
                    Honestly? The Wyrmhole was going to have its due no matter what. I've been running possible scenarios for the Howlers to survive in my head, and in none of those it is workable. The Howlers couldn't leave and let the hole there fester. Even if they stood guard at it, the corruption would have been just slower. Even if they created a multi-tribal guard, the BSDs would have just been born from variety of tribes rather than a single one.

                    But after the Howlers fell, I think in some way the Wyrmhole had done its purpose, because you never hear about it again.


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