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Why is there no dingo/out of asia foxes/out of europe Apis/Grondr

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  • Why is there no dingo/out of asia foxes/out of europe Apis/Grondr

    So I was going to complain about the idiocy of Australia, in the world of darkness of course (all other australian idiocies can go elsewhere) and the use of Tas tigers for garou rather those ubiquitous dingos (I'm sure it's metaphoric for the eradication of Aborigines, but you could do something smarter )but then I thought "hold on a moment, there's wild and mighty bovines just about everywhere outside of europe, as there are wild bacon counterparts, why are these two breeds extinct? Then we have foxes, and I don't think I really need much to say about those, they're tricksters everywhere, but some anime loving fool decided to keep the changers in east asia and stick them with the Japanese name. Now I understand that japan has a disproportionate cultural impact on the west relative to the rest of asia, and their industry grabbed the US, but any broader understanding of east asian history just makes it seem wrong.

    Then I realise there's no clever subtext or anything to look into here, from the ground up, some changing breeds have been really shallow. Horrendously ill thought out, someone sucks with geography, mythology or taxonomy, and the only methods'll be to fix the wars of rage so that everything ate the bacon and the beef and the foxes out of asia, that australia systematically killed all the dingo tribe that nobody heard of,despite the success of the species (the Thylacin gets a few more cave paintings and had the merit of being killed off by europeans which is nice for white-guilt drama but it's pretty clear what the logical choice for australia was. I mean they could've had both, but if it's one or the other, no way the garou wouldn't be dingos)

    So, a re-tread into forgotten parts of the Rage wars would make a lot of sense. The Garou get too much flak for genocide, when really I think they were just the best suited for it by luck (coincidentally, Europeans get the most flak for colonialism,slavery and genocide because their advantages in geography, resulting technology and such made them the best at it, and had another continent got that leg up instead, the world'd have a different oppressor with a different race on top, because every continent had their share of people fond of that sort of thing, they just don't get so much flak because they were less successful. If we run by that logic, then maybe the Bastet could've been the primary antagonist with a less successful wolf.) Disclaimer: I'm not saying the europeans weren't horrible and we should all be insensitive to all those who suffered, I'm saying everyone's horrible, or at least the people in power are. Just making it clear.

    The other tactic, of course, would be to straight up retcon everything awful. Write the dingos in, the boars and bovines of the Americas and Africas, the foxes of everywhere. But as we're 20 years into this, maybe it's a bit late.


    Be correct.

  • #2
    There are Dingos, most Australian born Lupus Garou are born of them. They aren't part of the Bunyip because Dingos didn't appear on the continent until much later.

    Non-Asian kitsune don't appear because the breed is young and they draw their root from the Far East. They have taken part almost exclusively in the Beast Courts til now. Their breeding issues also makes expansion very difficult.

    No excuse on the last point. Their are still true wild Boars/Wart Hogs and Bovine to this day.

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    • #3
      As Derhuzad said for the Bunyip and Kitsune.

      Regards the Gondr, Apis they are dead in the same way the Camasotz are dead. War or Rage species killing in Fera Ancient-Pre History has done the damage on both the physical and spiritual level to remove the Changing Breed entirely. Actually there are some "Grondr" still around, what's left of them are the Wyrm Monsters known as SkullPigs, the Apis is dead, dead but the Camasotz also have some dodgy Wyrmy echoes.

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      • #4
        Originally posted by Derzhuzad View Post
        Non-Asian kitsune don't appear because the breed is young and they draw their root from the Far East. They have taken part almost exclusively in the Beast Courts til now. Their breeding issues also makes expansion very difficult.
        That's the stupid part though. why do they draw their root from the far east, with all the fox tricksters in existence (and if it was for the whole nine-tailed thing, that could've been a totem, and one could've had the wits to recognise that the japanese borrowed the myth) when the red fox spans the entirity of the northern hemisphere and the east asian myths aren't even the best ones. Someone just went "oh this sounds so exotic" when they've probably got a fox within a few miles of em. Why are they new? Why have they just chosen asia despite everything. The only answer is writers, and that's never a good one.


        Be correct.

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        • #5
          These were just design choices the original developers made. If you don't like them, change them in your chronicles.

          I never accepted the idea that marsupial predators were wolves, so I've never considered the Bunyip to be Garou. They are simply another Changing Breed. Everything else remain the same - the Garou still wiped them out and then felt guilty about it. I've never had anyone in my games which objected to that.

          In Rage Across Australia, they had Red Talons have the forms of dingoes and in other sourcebooks they've taken the form of Painted Hunting Dogs (in Africa). I've always been leery on this, as once you have Garou assuming non-wolf forms, I think it can create a lot of problems. If Garou can take those forms, why can't Bone Gnawers take the form of at least some dogs? Why are Nuwisha separate from Garou? I think a hard line has to be drawn somewhere so it is coherent, reasonable, and prevents ridiculousness. That line will be different for different people.

          They made werefoxes Asian only because it is really only in China and Japan that have myths of werefoxes (or foxwomen actually). There isn't a tradition of people who turn into foxes (or vice versa) in Europe or elsewhere. So it actually makes sense they don't exist elsewhere. Still, I like my tales of Reynard the Fox as well so there is no reason why the occasional werefox can't show up elsewhere.

          I'm not sure where the Apis and Grondr comment comes from because they were exterminated everywhere in the Old World. Aurochs were never in Australia or the New World nor were Boars (at least not until the Columbian Exchange). As to why small pockets of them did not survive in areas where wolves are not naturally present, there can be lots of reasonable explanations. Kinfolk for those creatures need not be equally distributed everywhere. Garou can follow moon bridges and travel to lots of places. And I've always held that the "War of Rage" was not a real event, but a historical term developed long after that time to give narrative and explanation for a long series of conflicts (in the same sense that historians created the Hundred Years War to cover a series of similar, but quite distinct separate wars). The other werecreatures butchered each other just as much as the Garou did so if there were some Apis surviving in Africa, the Simba and Ajaba probably killed them for the same reason the Garou killed them in their lands - they were local competitors and got in the way.
          Last edited by Black Fox; 02-03-2018, 01:54 PM.

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          • #6
            Basically?

            The original material was written with sounds "cool at the time" beating, "hey should we consider this in more detail?" And there was a refusal to do anything but minor retcons over time to address this.

            The setting is illogical in hindsight, because it wasn't trying to be coherently logical in the first place.

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            • #7
              Originally posted by Heavy Arms View Post
              Basically?

              The original material was written with sounds "cool at the time" beating, "hey should we consider this in more detail?" And there was a refusal to do anything but minor retcons over time to address this.

              The setting is illogical in hindsight, because it wasn't trying to be coherently logical in the first place.
              I don't know. There's logic to satire even when it's a farce. Some of werewolf really makes sense in a dumb way, not nearly as much as vampire, but it's enough to make you think. This is one of my favourite things about WoD, and when it's absent and just dumb without that sense, the quality is less, in my opinion.

              Though you know that chinatown part of the endgame for the bloodlines game where everyone's dressed in colour coded MA uniforms and most are using knives or crossbows, there's bamboo traps and people come out of walls? That was incredibly dumb, but they knew it, and it made sense in a camp and stupid way, and I'm not sure if it was excellent because they knew it was dumb (not the level design though, that was a pretty shit level)
              Last edited by PewPew; 02-02-2018, 06:29 PM.


              Be correct.

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              • #8
                The games aren't meant to be satire or farce. They're not intended to be overtly comedic in their approach to commentary. It's supposed to make you think via the punk side of the themes being in your face and dramatic, rather than mockery.

                VtM: Bloodlines was put out in 2004, clearly recognizing some of the inherently silly things in the WoD and running with them as part of the aesthetic. It reflects the games well, but doesn't really say much about why these things were created the way they were.

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by PewPew View Post
                  So I was going to complain about the idiocy of Australia, in the world of darkness of course (all other australian idiocies can go elsewhere) and the use of Tas tigers for garou rather those ubiquitous dingos (I'm sure it's metaphoric for the eradication of Aborigines, but you could do something smarter )but then I thought "hold on a moment, there's wild and mighty bovines just about everywhere outside of europe, as there are wild bacon counterparts, why are these two breeds extinct? Then we have foxes, and I don't think I really need much to say about those, they're tricksters everywhere, but some anime loving fool decided to keep the changers in east asia and stick them with the Japanese name. Now I understand that japan has a disproportionate cultural impact on the west relative to the rest of asia, and their industry grabbed the US, but any broader understanding of east asian history just makes it seem wrong.
                  Anime? No, OA, as in the AD&D book. The creators of the WoD are rpg players from an older generation, and that was what a lot of them got into the hobby playing. This is also why some stuff from D&D got carried over without much questioning, like the presentation of Tou Mu, or the completely fabricated demon archer (the fact that it's made up is not nearly so bad as the fact that it was made up by someone else and suggests that, much like in the works of the webcomic creator Krazy Krow, D&D books of early vintage are genuine occult texts)..

                  Then I realise there's no clever subtext or anything to look into here, from the ground up, some changing breeds have been really shallow. Horrendously ill thought out, someone sucks with geography, mythology or taxonomy, and the only methods'll be to fix the wars of rage so that everything ate the bacon and the beef and the foxes out of asia, that australia systematically killed all the dingo tribe that nobody heard of,despite the success of the species (the Thylacin gets a few more cave paintings and had the merit of being killed off by europeans which is nice for white-guilt drama but it's pretty clear what the logical choice for australia was. I mean they could've had both, but if it's one or the other, no way the garou wouldn't be dingos)

                  So, a re-tread into forgotten parts of the Rage wars would make a lot of sense. The Garou get too much flak for genocide, when really I think they were just the best suited for it by luck (coincidentally, Europeans get the most flak for colonialism,slavery and genocide because their advantages in geography, resulting technology and such made them the best at it, and had another continent got that leg up instead, the world'd have a different oppressor with a different race on top, because every continent had their share of people fond of that sort of thing, they just don't get so much flak because they were less successful. If we run by that logic, then maybe the Bastet could've been the primary antagonist with a less successful wolf.) Disclaimer: I'm not saying the europeans weren't horrible and we should all be insensitive to all those who suffered, I'm saying everyone's horrible, or at least the people in power are. Just making it clear.

                  The other tactic, of course, would be to straight up retcon everything awful. Write the dingos in, the boars and bovines of the Americas and Africas, the foxes of everywhere. But as we're 20 years into this, maybe it's a bit late.
                  "If I didn't do it, someone else would have!" never wins you many friends in debate.

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                  • #10
                    RE: Kitsune

                    They are focused as such because they came about in the Hengyokai book during the year of the Lotus late 2nd edition and were not a part of the Werewolf cosmology until then. Any of the Western type Fox-Shifter-Tricksters would be Pooka from Changeling the Dreaming. The Kistune legends have a slightly different flavour to them than the fox legends and myths in the west and as such they worked quite well for the Year of the Lotus to have a different Changing breed from everything done before up to that point.

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Heavy Arms View Post
                      The games aren't meant to be satire or farce. They're not intended to be overtly comedic in their approach to commentary. It's supposed to make you think via the punk side of the themes being in your face and dramatic, rather than mockery.

                      VtM: Bloodlines was put out in 2004, clearly recognizing some of the inherently silly things in the WoD and running with them as part of the aesthetic. It reflects the games well, but doesn't really say much about why these things were created the way they were.
                      Plus, minus the Society of Leopold mission, most of the end missions in Bloodlines were very awkward combat/stealth levels that were clearly a bit rushed. You could talk your way out of stuff in previous levels atleast in parts.


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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Moirdryd View Post
                        RE: Kitsune

                        They are focused as such because they came about in the Hengyokai book during the year of the Lotus late 2nd edition and were not a part of the Werewolf cosmology until then. Any of the Western type Fox-Shifter-Tricksters would be Pooka from Changeling the Dreaming. The Kistune legends have a slightly different flavour to them than the fox legends and myths in the west and as such they worked quite well for the Year of the Lotus to have a different Changing breed from everything done before up to that point.
                        Kitsune first showed up in Caerns: Places of Power from 1993 and is a first edition sourcebook.

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                        • #13
                          I'd just have the Bunyip mate with Dingoes. Solves the problem.

                          But in many myths dogs, coyotes, and wolves are spiritually distinct animals. You can see this reflected in the Changing Breeds to a degree, but Apocalypse IMO suffered from the early developers not emphasizing enough on how Werebeasts are half spirit, half flesh creatures. Part of their very make up is the symbolism of the animal they shift into, and why no random Croatan or Bunyip descended Garou, or the extinct species of Fera are ever going to ever be born again; the spirit half is gone forever. This was something I felt was better emphasized right off the bat in Forsaken, which avoided things like the 'Garou gene' that later had to be retconned (despite the DNA company still being a thing).

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Onkwe View Post
                            I'd just have the Bunyip mate with Dingoes. Solves the problem.

                            But in many myths dogs, coyotes, and wolves are spiritually distinct animals. You can see this reflected in the Changing Breeds to a degree, but Apocalypse IMO suffered from the early developers not emphasizing enough on how Werebeasts are half spirit, half flesh creatures. Part of their very make up is the symbolism of the animal they shift into, and why no random Croatan or Bunyip descended Garou, or the extinct species of Fera are ever going to ever be born again; the spirit half is gone forever. This was something I felt was better emphasized right off the bat in Forsaken, which avoided things like the 'Garou gene' that later had to be retconned (despite the DNA company still being a thing).
                            Revised (and W20, presumably before KABA) had DNA hitting their heads against a brick wall because they couldn't explain how anything about the Garou worked, and their theoretical framework for trying was a nightmarish doorstopper's doorstopper of notebooks awash in caffeine and delusion. This could have been further driven home, to be sure (keeping them from even identifying Kinfolk through gene markers), but we seem to have been forced back to square one because of ParaWolf.

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by PewPew View Post
                              That's the stupid part though. why do they draw their root from the far east, with all the fox tricksters in existence (and if it was for the whole nine-tailed thing, that could've been a totem, and one could've had the wits to recognise that the japanese borrowed the myth) when the red fox spans the entirity of the northern hemisphere and the east asian myths aren't even the best ones. Someone just went "oh this sounds so exotic" when they've probably got a fox within a few miles of em. Why are they new? Why have they just chosen asia despite everything. The only answer is writers, and that's never a good one.
                              There are tricksters, but foxes as shapeshifting spirit-creatures is pretty culturally distinct; and that was the lore they built the Kitsune Gifts et all around.

                              Also WtA Kitsune aren't inherently tricksters (though many chose to be). That's the Nuwisha's bag.


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