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Why is there no dingo/out of asia foxes/out of europe Apis/Grondr

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  • #31
    Originally posted by Moirdryd View Post
    RE: Kitsune

    They are focused as such because they came about in the Hengyokai book during the year of the Lotus late 2nd edition and were not a part of the Werewolf cosmology until then. Any of the Western type Fox-Shifter-Tricksters would be Pooka from Changeling the Dreaming. The Kistune legends have a slightly different flavour to them than the fox legends and myths in the west and as such they worked quite well for the Year of the Lotus to have a different Changing breed from everything done before up to that point.
    Uh, pretty sure the Kitsune first appear in Caerns: Places of Power, along with the Hakken - in fact they get about 10 pages of myth & mechanics in the appendix - back in '93, about half a decade before Hengeyokai and 4 years before there was even a Changeling the Dreaming...
    Last edited by Baaldam; 02-13-2018, 11:19 PM.

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    • #32
      Originally posted by Bunyip View Post

      Unfortunately it doesn’t solve any problem. The Bunyip tribe would have been long extinct for thousands of years before the dingo even showed up.

      I’ve no doubt that the original Werewolf writers included the Bunyip/Thylacine thing simply because they saw these things that were sometimes called wolves and decided ‘this would be cool’. We tried to reconcile that it did exist with why it did so in Shattered Dreams, but you know...

      Specifically I think it was the movie Howling III: the Marsupials' fault....
      Last edited by glamourweaver; 02-14-2018, 12:25 AM.


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      • #33
        Originally posted by Saur Ops Specialist View Post

        Also, from the onset, the WoD wasn't exactly like the real world in demographics. The description laid out that there were fewer small towns and a great deal of untouched wilderness still about to provide the spooky gothic atmosphere. However, the spooky gothic atmosphere is coincidentally also a great place to hide a lot of wild animals that went extinct in real life.


        Its true but I like to try to incorporate "Real" myths even modern stuff like cryptids in my setup.

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        • #34
          Originally posted by Onkwe View Post
          The Dingo could have arrived to Australia anywhere between 3,500 to 12,000 years ago. Going at the higher end of that range would coincide with the Bunyip's arrival to Australia.
          Even the higher end of the range would be 10-20 thousand years later than the Bunyip’s arrival, but no one’s stopping you doing what you want at your table.


          Writes stuff. Sometimes you like it. WoD | Changing Breeds, Umbra, Book of the Wyrm, Shattered Dreams CofD | Werewolf: The Forsaken 2nd ed, Idigam Anthology, The Pack, Demon Storyteller's Guide, Hurt Locker, Dark Eras Companion, Beast Player's Guide, Deviant: The Renegades, Night Horrors: Shunned by the Moon | The Trinity Continuum Æon, Æon Æxpansion, Aberrant

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          • #35
            Originally posted by Bunyip View Post

            Even the higher end of the range would be 10-20 thousand years later than the Bunyip’s arrival, but no one’s stopping you doing what you want at your table.
            It would certainly fit with the original human settlement of the Americas, that counts as reasonably ancient for garou lore, so more than enough time for a local tribe from dingo stock to shape up. Honestly never saw much sense in considering were-thylacine garou, while prohibiting dog-kinfolk for Bone Gnawers & Glass Walkers. Making them Fera is far more sensible, imho.

            Originally posted by Lian View Post


            Its true but I like to try to incorporate "Real" myths even modern stuff like cryptids in my setup.
            Drobears? Who's to say they are not what the Bunyip changed into?
            Last edited by Baaldam; 02-14-2018, 08:14 AM.

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            • #36
              Originally posted by Baaldam View Post
              Honestly never saw much sense in considering were-thylacine garou, while prohibiting dog-kinfolk for Bone Gnawers & Glass Walkers. Making them Fera is far more sensible, imho.
              Yeah, but we work with what we got, and that ain’t what we got.


              Writes stuff. Sometimes you like it. WoD | Changing Breeds, Umbra, Book of the Wyrm, Shattered Dreams CofD | Werewolf: The Forsaken 2nd ed, Idigam Anthology, The Pack, Demon Storyteller's Guide, Hurt Locker, Dark Eras Companion, Beast Player's Guide, Deviant: The Renegades, Night Horrors: Shunned by the Moon | The Trinity Continuum Æon, Æon Æxpansion, Aberrant

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              • #37
                Originally posted by Bunyip View Post

                Yeah, but we work with what we got, and that ain’t what we got.
                Thylacine were called tasmanian wolves, but also tasmanian tigers. Seen anyone proposing they should also be a Bastet (Khan) branch because of that?

                Need i go into the senselessness of Nuwisha/Coyote being Fera while Silent Striders and their jackal stock are garou?

                We work with making the settting our own. Ignore hashly thought fluff, like the lack of perspective/sense of scale of the writers when writing RAA, according to taste.

                Want a compromise solution? Maybe a "dingo bunyip" tribe came to be through adoption/fosterage of lost cubs/foundlings by the "elder bunyip"/were-thylacine, in a kind of variant of how the Children of Gaia came to be from orphans of older tribes being taken aand nurtured by the goddess herself.
                Last edited by Baaldam; 02-14-2018, 08:38 AM.

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                • #38
                  Originally posted by Baaldam View Post

                  Need i go into the senselessness of Nuwisha/Coyote being Fera while Silent Striders and their jackal stock are garou?

                  We work with making the settting our own. Ignore hashly thought fluff, like the lack of perspective/sense of scale of the writers when writing RAA, according to taste.
                  Well to be fair they are Jackal looking wolves... just squint!


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                  • #39
                    Originally posted by Black Fox View Post
                    These were just design choices the original developers made. If you don't like them, change them in your chronicles.

                    I never accepted the idea that marsupial predators were wolves, so I've never considered the Bunyip to be Garou. They are simply another Changing Breed. Everything else remain the same - the Garou still wiped them out and then felt guilty about it. I've never had anyone in my games which objected to that.

                    In Rage Across Australia, they had Red Talons have the forms of dingoes and in other sourcebooks they've taken the form of Painted Hunting Dogs (in Africa). I've always been leery on this, as once you have Garou assuming non-wolf forms, I think it can create a lot of problems. If Garou can take those forms, why can't Bone Gnawers take the form of at least some dogs? Why are Nuwisha separate from Garou? I think a hard line has to be drawn somewhere so it is coherent, reasonable, and prevents ridiculousness. That line will be different for different people.
                    Recent genetic testing has shown that the Coyote diverged from the Grey Wolf only 50,000 years ago and there has been massive interbreeding between coyote and wolf population in the eastern half of the US, especially the south in the last two hundred years. They should not be considered distinct species.

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                    • #40
                      Originally posted by Eldagusto View Post
                      Well to be fair they are Jackal looking wolves... just squint!
                      And with coyotes, "guará wolves" or foxes not?
                      Last edited by Baaldam; 02-14-2018, 08:39 AM.

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                      • #41
                        Originally posted by Eldagusto View Post
                        Well to be fair they are Jackal looking wolves... just squint!

                        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Egyptian_wolf


                        Or they are you know.... actual wolves that were called jackals until fairly recently.

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                        • #42
                          Originally posted by Lian View Post


                          https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Egyptian_wolf


                          Or they are you know.... actual wolves that were called jackals until fairly recently.
                          To be honest, the Strider breeding doesn't really look like that, it is more this;


                          Which makes them look not jackal or wolf-like, but just plain dog-like XD


                          My gallery.

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                          • #43
                            There's also the mythical and spiritual aspect. In my culture alone wolves, coyotes, and dogs fit very specialized niches in the cosmology. In our stories dogs are considered descended from wolves, but they gave this up when they decided to help guide humans. This transformed them into a new animal and as a result are shunned by the rest.

                            Even ignoring Mage's concensuel reality thing, it's in Werewolf canon that reality use to be very different in the past. The Umbra was closer to the physical world, so everything worked far more symbolically.

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                            • #44
                              Originally posted by Onkwe View Post
                              There's also the mythical and spiritual aspect. In my culture alone wolves, coyotes, and dogs fit very specialized niches in the cosmology. In our stories dogs are considered descended from wolves, but they gave this up when they decided to help guide humans. This transformed them into a new animal and as a result are shunned by the rest.

                              Even ignoring Mage's concensuel reality thing, it's in Werewolf canon that reality use to be very different in the past. The Umbra was closer to the physical world, so everything worked far more symbolically.
                              Beat me to it. The changing breeds are half spirit and for that reason alone, I am an advocate of the Nuwisha being their own distinct breed. Of we toss the animism and real world cultural inspirations out in in favor of just cold hard science, we miss out on a lot of the game.

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                              • #45
                                Originally posted by Bunyip View Post

                                Even the higher end of the range would be 10-20 thousand years later than the Bunyip’s arrival, but no one’s stopping you doing what you want at your table.

                                Did the Bunyip come with the Aboriginal migrations to Australia? It's been a while since I read RAA. I just figured they could have came around the time the Dingo arrived.

                                There's also the option of what they did to the Ajaba. Gaia could have changed them too from Garou to another breed, keeping them as werethylacines.


                                Originally posted by Alucard View Post
                                Recent genetic testing has shown that the Coyote diverged from the Grey Wolf only 50,000 years ago and there has been massive interbreeding between coyote and wolf population in the eastern half of the US, especially the south in the last two hundred years. They should not be considered distinct species.
                                This is part of the reason why I think Forsaken dropped Lupus. It solves a lot of the problems with these questions from a biological angle if shifters only come from human stock.

                                At the same time, to not sound as I'm advocating the erasing of breeds, see my previous post about animals filling different mythical/spiritual niches. It's an angle that often gets forgotten in the pseudo-science parts of the setting.
                                Last edited by Onkwe; 02-14-2018, 12:55 PM.

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