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Vampires (not Cainites) for W:tA?

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  • Vampires (not Cainites) for W:tA?

    I've always liked to think of the games lines as separate universes. In W:tA, the Triat exist along with Gaia and there is no Abrahamic God or Biblical Cain. In other game lines, the cosmological assumptions in them take precedence. I also like to mix up the rules a bit to throw players for a loop. So I was thinking of coming up with entirely different vampires for a WW game, where they are mechanically different as well as having a different cause and origin.

    My first thought is fomori, they kind of match up to the theme of vampires. A human which is possessed by a demonic creature which supernaturally changes the host's body and gives it drives to do terrible things. It fits in the cosmology of WW too.

    So, no Cain or Antediluvians. But there should be weak and strong vampires. So vampires are created by an extremely powerful sort of bane that fuses to a mortal who is more than merely vulnerable, but who has the sorts of dark urges that would make a good match for the vampire bane. This gives us a master vampire who is extremely powerful, like an Elder or Methuselah equivalent. Then this vampire bane can break off little pieces of itself, forming other banes and forcing them into other mortals - creating vampire thralls who are weaker. Unliving longer and killing more mortals, drinking more blood, causing suffering, strengthens the banes and thus the vampire. Older ones are more powerful just like vampires are in almost all fiction.

    I was thinking that young vampires could still be alive physically, having fewer vampire weaknesses but also less physical prowess and resilience. They dislike the sun but can go out in it. They have lower physical abilities and don't have undead resistance to damage. Maybe they can still be turned human again, maybe by killing the master vampire or through some magical purification. The old vampires, those who have surpassed their mortal lifespan, are physically dead and burn in the sun but have more physical power and resistance to injury.

    The master vampire will have its own quirks and powers based on the specific nature of the bane, so we could end up with different kinds of vampires based on this.

    I was thinking that to truly kill the master vampire, you need to destroy its body in the material world and then go into the Umbra to destroy the bane after the body is dead, otherwise the bane gets away and takes another host.

    Mechanically I'm not sure exactly what powers to give them. I guess any that I think are interesting. I'd give every undead vampire the ability to soak aggravated damage along with high physical attributes and the master vampire would be really physically powerful, befitting a big boss. These vampires could even have an internal struggle against the bane, thus giving us that flavor from vampire fiction - though I like the idea od the vampire bane and the master vampire being allies and the first vampire willing joining with the bane.

    Anyway, thoughts or suggestions?

  • #2
    Some of this does feel like it borders on the Buffyverse take on vampires. Each vampire has a demon inside (bane) which takes over after the death of the body. The demon (bane) has the memories of the human, and often keeps a lot of the personality but what is left is a cruel blood sucking monster. Could link the banes possession to its blood, which then keeps it from creating too many vampires or anything like that.

    On another note, the origin of vampires in your world could steal from Buffy as well. In that continuity you had demons able to live in the world, but something happened that locked most of the big powerful ones away in hell. 1 of the demons fed on a human and mixed its blood with that mortal creating the first vampire, a demon that was able to stay in the world and not be locked away. For me that sounds a lot like when the gauntlet was created and spirits were cut off from this world.

    Just some food for thought.

    On a side note...why keep the younger vampires alive? Why not just go for the bane possesses the dead body of a victim/selected offspring? Or you could borrow from Lost Boys and have them be this "half vampire" creature until they've made their first kill. Lost Boys also had the idea if you kill the master vampire it would cure these half vampires.

    As for powers...why not still steal alot from VtM, at least as far as powers you like (ditch Dementation and Serpentis, but I see no reason to get rid of Protean, Dominate, and Presence for example)
    Last edited by CeltSPZ; 03-27-2018, 05:12 PM.

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    • #3
      Cainites works in Werewolf. Even in Vampire the Masquerade there is no proof it happened as the bible said, even in the book of Nod they make it seem more like the workings Awakened Mages (It was Adam banishing Caine to Nod, possibly invoking his Father God), and Spirits, with the Absolute not acting directly.

      I was never found of each and every supernatural directly being the spawn of the Triat in Werewolf, they are the highest facets of the Universe their touch upon the world should be diluted through multiple layers of Beings.

      That being Said Zapathsura's origin of being cursed by the Gods seems to fit just fine, especially for the Hengeyokai.


      It is a time for great deeds!

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      • #4
        I like the half vampire idea. Like, well, Lost Boys. It appears in other vampire fiction too. Vampires that haven't become full fledged vampires yet and who have fewer powers and fewer weaknesses. Maybe people who the werewolf protagonists could rescue potentially?

        Yeah, I don't see any reason not to use Disciplines too. I'm not too crazy about Dementation or Serpentis even in the V:tM setting, so you're right I would toss those. As you say, Presence, Dominate, and Protean could stay along with physical Disciplines. Since they aren't PC's, there really isn't any limit. I could give them some powers that emulate Gifts, some that resemble certain levels of Disciplines, anything that would be cool and thematic.

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        • #5
          You could always lean into the biological angle a bit and make vampirism a Wyrm-tainted disease or a Bane that uses a viral vector.

          Alternatively you could also lean into the addictive blood aspect and make vampirism a bit like a drug dealing ponzi scheme. At the bottom are the ghouls, those who have just had a taste and are trapped in the cycles of debasement and self-destruction that addiction creates. There are two ways out for them: 1) getting clean, which is hard not only physically but also from a personal and environmental standpoint, or 2) buying in, becoming a vampire. At that level everything seems great. You've got more powers, you've got money, you're one of the beautiful people. All you have to do is be part of the problem and screw over the people under you. The higher you climb though and the deeper into blood you get the more that beautiful people veneer starts to slip. Your hair falls out, your ears get pointed, your skin gets rotten, you become a Nosferatu-style monster. At that point you aren't even in it for the perks anymore, you're just in it to be the one doing the fucking instead of the one getting fucked. If you continue past that point you lose even an approximation of humanity, becoming just a shape with mouths that are always hungry for blood, always demanding to be fed, sitting fat and immobile while you gorge yourself in exchange for selling your own potent vitae as the commodity that make the whole operation run.

          Yes I'm mostly just broadly sketching the actual game of V:tM as written, but to make it more Werewolf-y add in some body horror and a more direct metaphor for consumerism and corrosive social ills.

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          • #6
            something I wondered a while?

            How does a Astrally Projecting Vampire Interact with the Umbra, can the Garou see him and engage him?

            or Hunters Hunted II Psychic with the Astral Projection numina.


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            • #7
              My taking on this topic is to use variations of gifts and discipines as powers, so potence wwon't add strength but will make vampire normal stregth to do auto damage or auto success on strength related rolls, same with fortitude, celerity would only give one extra action per blood spent with no extra dex boof. Older vampires would add their physical disciplines to their stats depending their Age background, and yes that would represent how powerful the Beast (bane) has become. The only way to kill a powerful vampire would be to kill its Beast after you destroyed its body or it ill find a new dead host, maybe a younger vampire, and posses it. Then he should roll his Age backround pool difficulty 8 to see how much of its former power would remain intact. No successes would still possess the younger vampire but he would have no access to higher than 5 attributes and powers.

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              • #8
                Originally posted by Prince of the Night View Post
                something I wondered a while?

                How does a Astrally Projecting Vampire Interact with the Umbra, can the Garou see him and engage him?

                or Hunters Hunted II Psychic with the Astral Projection numina.
                The standard answer is that the Astral Plane (the High Umbra) is not the umbra that the Garou know (the Middle Umbra). So, no, Garou would not normally see a vampire, mage, or psychic astral projecting. There a rare few powers or circumstances where a Garou might enter the Astral Plane and sense or interact with a projector.

                Although I've never seen it stated as such, it seems that sometimes Astral spirits enter the Middle Umbra. Spirits like Epiphlings and domains like Epiphs suggest some Astral spirits cross over and eventually cross back. So a Garou might be able follow an Epiphling to the Astral, or use chiminage to convince it to help him cross over. There can be many other creative ways to do this, but they would be rare occurrences. Or maybe ask for a Gnosis, Awareness, Alertness or other ability roll to see if they can detect faintly such creatures on the other side.

                Of course many players don't want to put up with this and make it all happen in one dimensional realm.

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                • #9
                  There are a couple of Banes in the Book of the Wyrm that target vampires, so you could start there; The Bloodworm and the Draugr (p141-142) They would both give a very different version of vampires.

                  Otherwise, look at building the powers and limitations through mutations and wyrm gifts (Or Weaver - They are un-ageing creatures stagnant against time) things like a weakness or limitation when the sun is up that certain powers don't work. Also, by using rules for Spirit powers and Gifts, you'll be using consistent rules within the game and hopefully have less rules conflicts on powers; Run Rage as their Frenzy instead of Self control being the inverse of it, have flat increases to stats instead of disciplines, and give them powers that mimic disciplines.

                  I personally prefer to keep game lines separate because of simplicity and because putting a "Vampire" into a Werewolf game, you want it to match the themes of Werewolf. And most Cainites from V:TM don't fit those themes.

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Prince of the Night View Post
                    something I wondered a while?

                    How does a Astrally Projecting Vampire Interact with the Umbra, can the Garou see him and engage him?

                    or Hunters Hunted II Psychic with the Astral Projection numina.
                    This is explained in Umbra 20. The Astral plane is the High Umbra, Werewolves have a hard time entering the High Umbra, their rage makes it harder. But a Garou who GETS into the High Umbra can totally claw your astral form!

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                    • #11
                      Totally doable. The Possessed book has many powers you can duplicate to make vampire-esque creatures. The Bloodworm Illithid referenced is the premium example. They start out like the "Strain" type vampires. Then turn into something creepy enough to be put into Dark Souls. As for mythos, who is to say that one or the other is correct. Perhaps all of them are right. The humanity trait could easily be juxtaposed with the Autonomy trait. The only thing honestly should really consider is how the "vampire" society is, if at all. Loners? Hives? Hierarchies? Mutations? Rivalries?

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                      • #12
                        Recommended Taints: Blood Addiction, Severe Allergy: Sun. Recommended Powers: Animal Control, Berserker, Claws/Fangs, Darksight, Enhancement, Immunity to Delirium, Invisibility, Invulnerability, Regeneration, Sense the Unnatural, Venemous Bite, Voice of the Wyrm, Wall Walking, Water Breathing, Recommended Merits: Hidden Power, Unpossessed.

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