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Inverting the Weaver and the Wyld.

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  • Lian
    started a topic Inverting the Weaver and the Wyld.

    Inverting the Weaver and the Wyld.

    Rather than Technology being a thing of the Weaver and humanity being shown as a rise of her, what if we invert things? Garou are primarily conservative, with the most extreme holding to traditions more ancient than human history this makes the more Weavery. Nature tends to be Weavery it tends to be stable outside points of change. The Weaver is the Weak one. She has been smashed as the Wyld has rushed in, this is why change has sped up as human history has increased. Technology is a manifestation of the Wyld, it transforms the world. The Glasswalkers are the Wyld Tribe, its why they keep changing their name!

    The Weaver kept the wyrm trapped, in its place. The wyld has driven it mad, corrupted the purity of destruction and balance into madness and taint.


    Thoughts?

  • Onkwe
    replied
    Originally posted by Lian View Post


    The thing is, the Tribes most likely to "fall the wyld" aren't particularly chaotic and the one in danger of going to the weaver is the one that has changed its name and structure rather regularly. A Red Talon who's been thrown forward a thousand years and shows up at a Red Talon sept isn't going to be confused. a Warder of Men sure as hell isn't going to get Glasswalkers.

    Now this could be a reaction to 'plunging" into the other side.. To keep from falling to the wyld when interacting regularly you become very static and vice versa.. maybe

    But it's a rather superficial analysis of what the Triat represent.

    I'll give you that the tribes can come off as very static, but that leans on the side of an oversight from the devs angle of building tribes around modern ideas and stereotypes, and then projecting them into the past without coming up with a proper organic history. But like I said, the idea of switching the Weaver and Wyld's role in the game works and is an interesting take on the cosmology, but I don't think that it has to naturally lead to that.

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  • Lian
    replied
    Originally posted by Onkwe View Post
    This occurred to me as well. Natural cycles are about a balanced order and this implies a pattern and thus the Weaver. However the natural cycles are suppose to be of the Wyld, Weaver, and Wyrm acting together and balanced. However the Triat is out balance, and each on their own is a highly destructive element, which Mage did a better job of showing. The issue is with presentation. The division between Gaian and Triatic spirits was too harsh. It made the later come off as alien invaders rather than spirits that leaned too far in one direction or another. If I was redoing the game, I'd present spirits like this, and due to the increasing imbalance they're being pushed more and more to take a side in the Triatic conflict.

    Not to say an inversion isn't an interesting scenario, but one thing that I liked about WtA being different was it didn't do the usual thing of having order vs chaos. They inverted it, which does go against our nature as human beings of recognizing patterns. Then again, the Wyld was suppose to be loosely an ally of convenience, and not representative of what they served; that would be balancing all three. It was something that should have been emphasized A LOT more.

    The thing is, the Tribes most likely to "fall the wyld" aren't particularly chaotic and the one in danger of going to the weaver is the one that has changed its name and structure rather regularly. A Red Talon who's been thrown forward a thousand years and shows up at a Red Talon sept isn't going to be confused. a Warder of Men sure as hell isn't going to get Glasswalkers.

    Now this could be a reaction to 'plunging" into the other side.. To keep from falling to the wyld when interacting regularly you become very static and vice versa.. maybe

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  • Onkwe
    replied
    This occurred to me as well. Natural cycles are about a balanced order and this implies a pattern and thus the Weaver. However the natural cycles are suppose to be of the Wyld, Weaver, and Wyrm acting together and balanced. However the Triat is out balance, and each on their own is a highly destructive element, which Mage did a better job of showing. The issue is with presentation. The division between Gaian and Triatic spirits was too harsh. It made the later come off as alien invaders rather than spirits that leaned too far in one direction or another. If I was redoing the game, I'd present spirits like this, and due to the increasing imbalance they're being pushed more and more to take a side in the Triatic conflict.

    Not to say an inversion isn't an interesting scenario, but one thing that I liked about WtA being different was it didn't do the usual thing of having order vs chaos. They inverted it, which does go against our nature as human beings of recognizing patterns. Then again, the Wyld was suppose to be loosely an ally of convenience, and not representative of what they served; that would be balancing all three. It was something that should have been emphasized A LOT more.
    Last edited by Onkwe; 05-08-2018, 03:54 PM.

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  • Warpwind
    replied
    Taking into account that naturally most unstructured change leads to entropy - it makes sense wyld and wyrm are two sides of the same coin. After all, the amount of matter and energy doesn't change, only it's form. So, to create something something must be destroyed. Not only that, but world doesn't make sense otherwise. Werewolves have just created a morality based narrative to explain the reality and doggedly refuse to update it.
    That is the way it is dealt with in Mage, where entropy is both change and death, what werewolves call 'wyrm' is a disruption of the whole process. So, shamans do not interfere with wyrm spirits if they do not literally go on a rampage. Of course, good luck convincing furry killing machines of that.

    So yeah. technology shouldn't be a force for stasis, bar the cases when technology itself doesn't change for millennia. It just seems that way when viewed from a very limited viewpoint.
    But, look at it from a cosmic scale and it's clearly an engine of change, the technology and human activity has created change on a scale that it disrupts the ordered cycles of the planet itself, not to mention something smaller and more transient. Nature is not chaos (though nor a machine), it is an ordered, sufficiently precise system to maintain cohesiveness on levels from microscopic to cosmic. Of course unmeasured, rapid change can quickly degrade the whole system and technology is not an exception. It is very much IRL problem.
    Last edited by Warpwind; 05-08-2018, 05:06 AM.

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  • Blind Dragon
    replied
    I have long felt exactly the same regarding the role of the Triat* and I strongly approve of this re-interpretation.

    *Ever since I came across a piece of text in, I think, the history of the Black Furies, which stated that the invention of writing was a thing of Stasis because it sealed ideas into words and symbols**. It was so ludicrous a take I mentally canceled the traditional WW take on the Triat after that.

    **Because illiteracy enhances the imagination, as is well known. /s

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  • Onkwe
    replied
    Originally posted by Lian View Post


    I am not trying to state one group is more moral than others but rather Technology comes from Chaos it doesn't make the world more stable, secure and static but is a representation of the world becoming more dangerously Wyld. Mankind isn't a dangerous child of the weaver but the wyld, it remakes wolves into dogs, Aurochs into cows, and now with Genetic engineering man can do in hours what it took generations before. More new ideas are being born in this age than have ever been seen before..

    Sorry I completely misread the intention of your post.

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  • Lian
    replied
    Originally posted by Onkwe View Post
    I think such a view looks at the Triatic aspect of the game too much as black and white forces, and that the Garou equate the Wyld with Gaia and thus 'good', when it takes all three entities to be in balance to keep Gaia healthy. It's not helped that sometimes the WtA books imply the former, so I can't put all the blame on the readers/players who come away with that view point. It's one of the things that Mage presented better in their Metaphysical Trinity version of the Triat IMO.

    I am not trying to state one group is more moral than others but rather Technology comes from Chaos it doesn't make the world more stable, secure and static but is a representation of the world becoming more dangerously Wyld. Mankind isn't a dangerous child of the weaver but the wyld, it remakes wolves into dogs, Aurochs into cows, and now with Genetic engineering man can do in hours what it took generations before. More new ideas are being born in this age than have ever been seen before..

    Leave a comment:


  • Shadeprowler
    replied
    I would take this a step further... or a whole another direction
    There is no Wyrm...
    Okay, let me explain^^
    The thing the Garou and some (but not all mind you! ) Fera identify as "Wyrm" is just another "face" of the Wyld
    What is the Wyld really? Chaos. Ever changing chaos without rules , infinite possibilities. Mutation...
    The whole basic of the triatic war is/was, the Weaver, the Order managed to capture the Balance, the Destroyer in her webs... and that caused a shitload of trouble
    But what was the reason again?
    According the legend, Weaver had enough. She tried to give form and shape and prupose the infinite possibilites, energies of the Wyld, the Chaos, but Wyld always danced away, changed things without Her premisson, disturbed every rule, every order, everything... and Wyrm/Dragon of Balance devoured her creations, consumed the Patern, no mater what she did
    So she captured the Balance, that became Wyrm warped in her webs
    But here is the funny thing!
    It makes 0 sense
    If Weaver could have desing a Patern, that the Devorurer can not possibly destory and consume, then the problem solved itself already since she would just made everything according that design/patern. But is she couldn't? Then no amount of web could hold the Balance, after all, Entropy itself, the whole essence is to devour, to consume, to end things, to make space to the new. By its nature nothing could bind it, after all, the Destroyer... just destory the patern and consume it like any other, like it did from the start of creation.
    So, we could agree, the "Balance" - then again what is balance? It is just a mater of perspective from one point of view, there is no unviersal defininiton of balance,,, . is essentially free - since it can't be bound (eithert it would devour instently the pattern, or weaver not able to desing something that defy her of rules)
    That leaves us the Weaver, patterns, stasis, perfection.
    And Wyld... the Chaos.
    What is Wyrm? Wyrm is the name of the phenomenae of spiritual corruption. Insanity, mutation, etc. But insanity is a tricky thing, insane ones see the world from different angle, from out of the ... order (lets not dive in to the mental state, not really a point of it, and a foggy terrotory, sensitive. Lets just say, if you are insane, you see the world differently, and behave differently than the "sane" part of the world - but from your point of view, the world is insane and you are sane. Same thing. Not the part of something ordery) Mutation? Is changing. Part of the evolution.
    Now spiritual corruption warps your body and a soul... except not really. Yes, the Wyrm's minions - especially spirits - are horrible things, by their nature, not really by their choice. Yes, you could become a Wyrm thing, by choice, by embracing the dark side of things, doing horrible things, but then you hardly could blame Wyrm for it. The davil made me do it... yeah right.
    Gaia - and Wyld - are not nice and fluffy things. Remember, Gaia tasked the Ratkins to keep the population in check with... plagues and famine. Let the plagues of the Ratkin kull the population, lett them eat everything till the famine that follows finish the job! And the Ajaba, to be the "Rainmaker" becasue when they shows up, tears pour like rain.,.. they devour the dead, and hunt and kill the old and the weak (and the useless to the herd) to keep the population strong.
    These are.... pretty grim things, from a humane point of view. (Like Gaia not really raised it voice to stop the mass murder of entire Feara species, becasue... while its horrible, the strong survives. Her nature is like that. And every spirit needs to bargained to teach you things wich are essential to fight for Her... against Wyrm. Why? Becasue she never bothered to told them to do it. Wyrm faced Wyld is not her enemy. Yep, 90% of the living things dies... or more. But mass extinctions are periodical tings. Like ice ages "Gaia washes her face with snow and ice" and millions bite the dust.)
    From the nature point of vivew, pretty normal. Gaia is the spirit of the earth and nature and mother Nature is helluva bitcth! The planet is 4 billion years old, give or tkae a little, and most of the time it was habitable, just different and different kind of lifeforms - for example, - according our science - when the first organisms appeared that produced oxygen, it was pure posion and killed of a lots of things, almost everthing that not adapted quikly enough! The Mokolé calls this a Wonderwork. When the table is cleared, back to square one, new age starts, the old dies.
    Natural.
    But if today something - let say, humans, just for fun - woudl start to produce poisonous thing that kills off most of the world... we would call it 'Wyrm', Funny isn't it?
    Sorry, a little wandered off from the original
    So corruption waprs you mind and soul... horrible change. Ewwww.
    And there are the Black Furries. - keep in myd they are closest to the Wyld
    By cannon, in the modern days in Central American and Southern North American, i.e. South of Oklahoma, Furies are experiencing a curious Plague. The plague called the Metamorphic Plague is responsible for the growing number of Male non-Metis born to the Furies at large. The plague also affects the psyche of the person infected and is a far more likely outcome. The plague alters a fundamental principle within the person dramatically, i.e. turns a 180 degree arc on it.
    How this is different than the Wyrm taint? Not really. Am I right?
    Everything the Wyrm does or its minions, are... quite the same, just a little differently what is the Wyld really. Chaos. Change. Not destruction.
    If it walks like a duck, If it looks like a duck, swims like a duck, and quacks like a duck, then it probably is a duck

    So, since the universe is still here and moving like nothing happened, everything is in place, the "Balance" must be "free" and there. Entropy is still doing its job, destyroing things, making space to the new...
    Weaver is doing her things... ordering the chaos of the Wyld, and Wyld fight back
    Wyrm as an enemy is nice passtime, but if you peel away the Garou dogma, it is not really exist , just Wyld or Gaia with a bloodier tallons

    Or as the Rokea said (sorry I don't have the book with me now, but in short) : The Garou said theye were made to fight with a big and scary enemy. But there was no such thing around. So they looked around and finde some for themselves. Silly dirtwalkers.
    Last edited by Shadeprowler; 04-07-2018, 01:46 PM.

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  • The Laughing Stranger
    replied
    Garou only like the Wyld because it is dying and needs to be nurtured. It is the aspect of the Triat that is weakest in the modern world. Garou fight the insane Wyrm and ascendant Weaver because they are so strong it is harming the Tellurian. Presumably werewolves would combat the Wyld too the forces of change and dynamism began to overwhelm the others.

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  • Onkwe
    replied
    I think such a view looks at the Triatic aspect of the game too much as black and white forces, and that the Garou equate the Wyld with Gaia and thus 'good', when it takes all three entities to be in balance to keep Gaia healthy. It's not helped that sometimes the WtA books imply the former, so I can't put all the blame on the readers/players who come away with that view point. It's one of the things that Mage presented better in their Metaphysical Trinity version of the Triat IMO.

    Leave a comment:


  • 21C Hermit
    replied
    Makes sense to me. We could say that the Weaver is not Stasis but Order, and the Wyld is not Dynamism but Chaos. That way we can still have Garou/Fera as the “keeper of the old ways” trope the game seems to exalt.

    Then again, I’m not as well read in Apocalypse as I’m in Forsaken, so I’m likely biased here...

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