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W20 vs Revised: Any NOTABLE/Big Changes?

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  • W20 vs Revised: Any NOTABLE/Big Changes?

    I'm currently running a crossover chronicle and I'm curious if there's any big changes in W20 vs Revised (particularly when it comes to character creation and experience spending). I noticed with most of the 20th anniversary books that experience spending changed to using the current value times a multiplier rather than the new value times a multiplier. Is this true in W20 as well? Having a hard time justifying the purchase of W20 when I already have revised and primarily only ever use Garou in crossover capacity. Any other big changes I should be aware of or take into account? If there are enough big ones then I might be more apt to just go ahead and get the book.

  • #2
    Dodge has been eliminated, several gifts have been altered (I feel for the most part for the better), there are some new gifts as well as a collection of ones not seen since 1st ed, and a rather comprehensive collection of Fomor powers. For CB20 if you are interested in the Fera at all there was a bunch of changes as well, Book of the Wyrm 20 has some changes on things like the Black Spiral Dancer culture, as well as a bunch of new Spiral gifts, and enemies (like the mockery breeds).

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    • #3
      Pure Breed no longer relies on human ethnic extraction in W20, and only affects the likeness of your forms outside of Homid.

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      • #4
        Originally posted by acwrig2 View Post
        I noticed with most of the 20th anniversary books that experience spending changed to using the current value times a multiplier rather than the new value times a multiplier. Is this true in W20 as well?
        Yes this is true in W20 as well.

        Originally posted by acwrig2 View Post
        Having a hard time justifying the purchase of W20 when I already have revised and primarily only ever use Garou in crossover capacity. Any other big changes I should be aware of or take into account? If there are enough big ones then I might be more apt to just go ahead and get the book.
        There are a bunch of significant though probably not game-breaking differences, like changes in the lists of abilities and gifts, as CeltSPZ mentioned above, changes in the flanking rules for combat, tweaks to the ways certain gifts work, changes in some rites and rite restrictions, etc. If you want your crossover Garou to be consistent with the W20 edition, or if you have a rules-lawyer at your table who won't be comfortable if they aren't "right", but you don't want to spend $100 on a big, pretty hardback book, have you considered buying the PDF only, for about $30, or the black-and-white version of the book for about $50?

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        • #5
          Originally posted by Wilson View Post

          Yes this is true in W20 as well.



          There are a bunch of significant though probably not game-breaking differences, like changes in the lists of abilities and gifts, as CeltSPZ mentioned above, changes in the flanking rules for combat, tweaks to the ways certain gifts work, changes in some rites and rite restrictions, etc. If you want your crossover Garou to be consistent with the W20 edition, or if you have a rules-lawyer at your table who won't be comfortable if they aren't "right", but you don't want to spend $100 on a big, pretty hardback book, have you considered buying the PDF only, for about $30, or the black-and-white version of the book for about $50?
          I use V20 as the 'core' book for the setting but I have players and NPCs from every classic world of darkness book. I built a main quest and story in a Camarilla city with over 200 different NPCs and quests. Two of my players are vampires. One is a Mummy, another is a Fallen. The Garou are all going to be functioning in an NPC capacity. Some that will be willing to work with the players and a group of Black Spiral Dancers are aligned with the primary adversaries which is a group of Baali and Fallen Raveners. None of my players have ever played WoD before at all, but three of them are big on researching and min/maxing rule lawyering. So ideally I want everything to be using the 20th anniversary edition whenever possible.

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          • #6
            Maybe I will be banned, but the greatest change for me is the abundance of homosexual Garou (check the Changing Ways).


            What wasn't mentioned above:

            The Powers system of Kamis changed totaly.

            The Kinfolk started to use Rites.

            Some of the rules of Umbra Realms changed.

            Tribes' backstory and worldview changed.

            Pentex upgraded.


            Shortly: Buy the books.


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            • #7
              W20 goes back and uses early edition mutliple action, I use the Revised rules multiple action for everything but rage.


              It is a time for great deeds!

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              • #8
                'Scent of the true form' doesn't reveal if a pre-change garou is a garou (says the gift entry) or does (says the Baptism of Fire entry). So, lost cubs are pretty much the standard at character creation, I guess.

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                • #9
                  Sidestepping mechanics also changed.
                  2nd: need of reflective surface
                  revised: no need of reflective surface, but if present lower difficulty and botch prevention
                  W20: need for reflective surface and if it isn't static, difficulty is +1

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by heinrich View Post
                    Sidestepping mechanics also changed.
                    2nd: need of reflective surface
                    revised: no need of reflective surface, but if present lower difficulty and botch prevention
                    W20: need for reflective surface and if it isn't static, difficulty is +1

                    Dang. Our last session was Sunday (the day before you posted this) and it was the players first encounter with a Garou (a black spiral dancer). The set up was them interrogating a Nos/Baali convert that they had in an interrogation room and the Garou sidestepped into it via the mirror seperating it from the viewing room in order to kill the Nos/Baali before the Prince and the party could learn too much from him. Feel bad now cause I used the Revised rules, not the new ones. Yeah I used a reflective surface, but that was to lower the difficulty.

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by acwrig2 View Post
                      Dang. Our last session was Sunday (the day before you posted this) and it was the players first encounter with a Garou (a black spiral dancer). The set up was them interrogating a Nos/Baali convert that they had in an interrogation room and the Garou sidestepped into it via the mirror seperating it from the viewing room in order to kill the Nos/Baali before the Prince and the party could learn too much from him. Feel bad now cause I used the Revised rules, not the new ones. Yeah I used a reflective surface, but that was to lower the difficulty.
                      Actually, it was never clearly explained to me, where the reflective (or shiny) surface had to be.

                      1. Always in the material world - meaning that carrying a dedicated mirror with helps you into the penumbra, but not out of it. There is a source for that. The 1st Edition Rite of Passage has the PCs be chased by a pack of inexperienced Wedigo and the author explains that because the Wendigo are inexperienced one of them wears shiny earrings that would allow the PCs to ambush their would be chasers by directly sidestepping into their camp, once they make camp.
                      2. Always with the garou - Meaning the mirror or shiny surface is a tool to make the mini-meditation/concentration for sidestepping easier. In Valkenburg Foundations's intro story Valkenburg has sidestepped into a Dream Realm of a patient he put into hypnosis (I guess he can do that, being a fancy Stargazer psychiatrist, but garou normally shouldn't). Needing to leave quickly he searches for a mirror to get out (and back to the material world). In any case, I prefer this view on sidestepping, the mirror needs to be with the garou.
                      3. At both places - This is the most restrictive. It kind of is implied in W20, although non static mirrors are a possibility. It would mean that there are only special places that allow to step between worlds and while everyone can put up a mirror, making it part of the penumbral landscape is far more difficult. And with lakes and rives becoming fewer, access to the penumbra is even more limited. Also, it means that stepping into a wall mirror, means you step out of it in the opposite direction in the other world. That is, when you go by the art in the 2nd Core intro comic, where actually walking into a mirror is shown. I prefer the 'garou concentrates and fades out in a blue shimmer'-description, though - without any actual movement in three dimensional space.

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                      • #12
                        Heinrich, I definitely prefer the second interpretation as well, though you can step sideways into the umbra with one reflective surface and back into the physical realm with a totally different surface. And don't just think of mirrors and wet surfaces. In cities, any polished glass or metal, or even shiny plastic, could serve as a "reflective" surface to enable the meditation for stepping sideways. In the wilderness, a reflective crystal could serve a similar purpose, or a piece of metal, like a polished blade or jewelry.

                        I also prefer to think of stepping sideways as something more like "fading out in a shimmer" rather than stepping "through the looking glass" like Lewis Carroll's Alice. I imagine it's more like taking a step in a fourth spatial dimension that only spirits can move in rather than stepping through a door in plain old 3D that only spirits can see and open. It's a step of the spirit and mind at least as much as it's a step with your feet, or maybe even instead of with your feet.
                        Last edited by Wilson; 04-30-2018, 08:20 PM.

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                        • #13
                          Also remember that, unless you have a certain gift that enables it, you can't see anything on the other side of the gauntlet, so you can't use a reflective surface that's only on the other side to enable your step sideways.

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