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Renown Stuff

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  • Renown Stuff

    So, a Wyrm-Tainted garou is infiltrating the Camarilla as a disenfranchised garou pretending to be anti garou and needing a job by going off to try and be the Prince's bodyguard. This is an attempt to get information on as many local leeches as possible. One of the players had the question: Doesn't all this lying reduce the renown of the Ragabash in question because of all the lying she has to do?

    I would think that lying is okay depending on who to (vampires) and why (to gather information to destroy vampires). Kind of like repairing the Veil might involve lying but still gains Honor.

  • #2
    Lying is bad for Renown, but if the Ragabash is successful and does far more damage to the enemies of the Garou, then they're easily gain more Renown then they'll lose. Ragabash get a bit boned here before they're encouraged to use tactics that aren't pro-Renown.

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    • #3
      The question always arises, especially in D&D with the lawful alignment. Point is, a solider or a spy do what is "just" in their specific line of work or circumstances, therefore a spy in the service of the crown can be lawful, while infiltrating an enemy kingdom.

      Same goes for a Ragabash to some degree. The question is, what is necessary and what is not, and what is excessive.

      Obviously, war crimes and such aren't anything a D&D lawful character should do, for it is beyond the acceptable. Same goes for a Ragabash in these situations. Lying without the need to do so is dishonorable, and therefore might reduce Renown.

      Keep in mind that the ST is arbitrator for the Renown loss, and it doesn't matter if the garou society knows about the deeds that are reflected in renown, or not. Renown is awarded (or reduced) in any case.

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      • #4
        I expect it would be easier for a no-moon to avoid renown loss for lying than for other auspices, but it might also be much harder for a wyrm-tainted werewolf to get a favorable judgment from a Philodox. On the other hand, it's probably much easier to excuse lying in order to infiltrate a nest of wyrmspawn than for most other reasons. Having the blessing of her elders would also help her avoid renown loss.

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        • #5
          Well, some of the elders are in favor of it and others are not. But her pack alpha (a cliath) who wanted her to do it actually won a staredown with an Athro philodox. So the entire pack is on the line.

          On the plus side, she has found the tremere chantry house, five havens (two of which are for the primogen).

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          • #6
            I would rule that the Ragabash loses Honor renown for lying, but gains Wisdom renown for learning about the Garou's enemies. Assuming the infiltration is successful and valuable knowledge is gained, the Ragabash should gain far more Wisdom renown than he loses Honor. The more worthwhile the information gained, the more it is in the Ragabash's favor.

            That the Ragabash can advance in Rank by learning ANY Renown allows Garou of this auspice to do things exactly like this scenario. A Philodox couldn't do this because the hit in Honor renown is too hard, but the Ragabash can easily do this.

            I think this is good because it presents a conflict for the PCs (and NPCs), but preserves player choice. The flexibility of renown for the Ragabash gives them options close to other auspices.

            What I would not do is say, "Well, it is OK if he lies because..." You set bad precedent that way. If certain behaviour is dishonorable, then it must always be dishonorable. Otherwise you open up people to arguing all these other exceptions to the rules, and eventually it will undermine the whole society. You want to be as consistent as possible.

            At the same time, the Garou are essentially a Shame culture instead of a Guilt culture. And they are at war. It is entirely reasonable for such cultures to go, "Deceiving the Wyrm is OK, and that includes Lying. Just do not do it those not of the Wyrm, and NEVER to another Garou." At the same time, if Garou get the reputation of being dishonorable and not trusthworthy, even to non-Garou, that may present problems. And vampires are sometimes considered to be in a gray zone. In such cases, Garou society may still want to insist that keeping one's word is important even to enemies (although that may prevent Honor loss, but lead to Wisdom loss). Therefore, you might want a slight curve that some amount of lying is acceptable to minions of the Wyrm so that less Honor renown is lost depending on how bad the Wyrm minion is.

            Over the course of a game or Garou's life, Garou should expect at some point to lose renown. It should not be a bad thing. People make mistakes. They get dinged for it. Then they make up for it, and everyone forgets about it. Someone who purposefully loses Renown, like this Ragabash, might get a "bad" reputation, but that is exactly the kind of things people expect a Ragabash to have.

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            • #7
              The way the player handled it was difficult. She never actually lied. She told the truth, just not the complete truth. She even used her alpha's words of, "Because most of the sept don't trust you, and the vampires might have heard of this, we're going to use it to infiltrate you into their society." The Ragabash, when questioned told the truth, "I'm not trusted by other garou. I need somewhere to be. I have chosen to be with you." And when the vampires asked for proof, they demanded a kinfolk. The Ragabash went to the former sept leader's widower and told the truth and gave the kinfolk the option (even urging the kinfolk to refuse). But the kinfolk accepted that the possibility of doing this would be honoring his spouse. So he went.

              All in all, there was loss of renown, there was gaining renown, the net ended up being +5 honor, too much wisdom to count, and when the battle came, so much glory that ...well...if they could do multiple perm at a time, the ragabash could easily have gone from cliath to adren.

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