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  • Kinfolk RiteMaster's

    Kinfolk a Breed apart allow's kinfolk to learn Rites. but says spirits arent obligated to answer your petition.

    ideas on thing that could represent the good will of the spirit world?

    Permanent Renown?

    One thing is allowing chiminage to influence things allowing the Resources background to be too powerful?

    as I find it hard to believe a bit of good Incense here or there couldnt influence them the slightest bit.



  • #2
    isn't spirit rep/notoriety a thing?

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    • #3
      Sorcery.

      Seriously I would allow a Kinfolk with a Sorcery Summoning Path that uses Ritual as the ability for the roll, it could be themed off of Kinfolk using Fera Knowledge and rituals in their sorcery.


      It is a time for great deeds!

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      • #4
        Any thoughts on Chiminage and resources?


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        • #5
          Originally posted by Prince of the Night View Post
          Any thoughts on Chiminage and resources?

          Check the Werewolf - The Apocalypse - Axis Mundi - The Book Of Spirits.


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          • #6
            Originally posted by Lachdanan View Post


            Check the Werewolf - The Apocalypse - Axis Mundi - The Book Of Spirits.
            reason why I asked is it seemed Chiminage is one way to get on a spirits good side.

            but that would seem to make resources too powerful.


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            • #7
              As in, you throw money at the spirit and it likes you more? Maybe that works for some kinds of spirits, like a Mula'krante, but most Gaian spirits aren't going to give two ephemeral shits about human money.

              Depending on what you chiminage is, it could be easier to do if you have lots of money- one of my players curried favor with a lightning spirit by crafting a solid silver rod and putting it on the tallest building in town. But often chiminage is not the sort of thing that is easier if you have money- if the Rat God demands that you drown all the cats on your block, going around and trying to buy them is only going to get you so far.

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              • #8
                Resources don't have any direct relevance to Chiminage. Certainly chiminage may involve sacrifices and other acts which might seem to be easier for a person with higher resources, because more money can get you access to things a poorer ritemaster may not get. But it actually does not work that way.

                1) When the Garou originally made pacts with spirits, it was the Stone Age and the Garou only had those materials hunter-gatherers could get locally. So it doesn't appear that Resources can really get you anything more than you needed as destitute Stone Age people.

                2) The kinds of things spirits expect are more than just mere materials. They are things that are meaningful in ways to the spirit, usually actions are important here, not goods. Spirits are concerned about things that are meaningful in the Umbra, not the Realm (except insofar that activities in the Realm affect the Umbra). Resources in that regards are little better than Confederate money in 1866 United States.

                3) Chiminage is less about buying something, than establishing a recirprocal relationship with the spirit. It is mutual favors owed and showing respect. Gifts are exchanged for their symbolic value, not as trading goods for their utilitarian value. They denote sincerity and good will, and symbolize their giver's intention and their place in the relationship. Chiminage signifies the understanding of the relationship between the spirit and material being, and the obligations they have to each other.

                To a spirit, a poor person sacrificing the change in their pocket could be a much more significant and relevant practice than a billionaire donating millions of dollars to an appropriate charity, simply because the poor person's action better reflects the obligation the spirit wants to see. As an example, we can look at the pack totem ban of Raven which states Raven;s children can't carry wealth, but trust in Raven to provide. A Red Talon lupus with no money to sacrifice to Raven, but would probably be completely acceptable. A Glass Walker billionaire who tells Raven he'll give up half of his fortune to Raven, but he'll keep the other half is not. This is true even though the Red Talon seems to have made no material sacrifice while the Glass Walker made a substantial material sacrifice.

                Now some spirits may have a nature that a person's Resources might better allow them to meet its Chiminage needs, but I think they are a very small exception, and that in the end the sheer amount of Resources available really would not matter.

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                • #9
                  Was thinking Incense, Which can be bought with money, actually.


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                  • #10
                    Ok, but which of the spirits would care for incense? Burning a scented thing isn’t bad, but what does that represent? Why should the creatures of the umbra care?

                    Even if it is exceptionally rare or expensive incense, I wouldn’t let that count for much, maybe a temporary favor or level 1 gift at best.
                    Last edited by The Laughing Stranger; 05-18-2018, 04:54 PM.

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                    • #11
                      another thing is a part of how a good number of kinfolk ritemasters will probaly start, a good number.of them at least, is being accepted as a proxy for those who DO have the benefits of the pact?


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                      • #12
                        Are you the GM of this story? If so, questions of the efficacy of kinfolk rites are totally your call to make. Could be three kinfolk are needed to pull off more challenging rituals. Or maybe seven. Or a variable number depending on the moon phase.. perhaps the task is easier or harder depending on location/caern strength. You can make it up and justify it however you want

                        There is no formula for how many occult-trained kin = a Garou/Fera.

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Prince of the Night View Post
                          Was thinking Incense, Which can be bought with money, actually.

                          It can also be obtained by allies, made with abilities. Hell with PB the Kinfolk might prove to be "extra valuable" thus able to convince his Garou kin to put some pressure on the spirits.

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                          • #14
                            sure you meant PB not gnosis?

                            as that lets them do a lot of other rites like the rite of binding.... and creatings talens for the septs stockpiles... not sure how to compensate them for such wqork. a salary or put preasure on the spirits to answer their calll in their off hours too.


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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by The Laughing Stranger View Post
                              As in, you throw money at the spirit and it likes you more? Maybe that works for some kinds of spirits, like a Mula'krante, but most Gaian spirits aren't going to give two ephemeral shits about human money.
                              Somewhere it's mentioned that metal elementals actually do prefer chiminage in the form of cash (although this strikes Garou as beyond strange).

                              Nonetheless, I would also suggest that money plays so little part in chiminage with Garou because money has relatively little value to Garou. If you've got a Kinfolk tying to appease a spirit, things might be a touch different. Money has real value in the human world -- a world that the Kinfolk are much more intimately connected to and submerged in than even Homid Garou are. Chiminage is often less about what is valuable to the spirit being bribed than to the value of the gift to the gift-giver. This is why personal mementos that have little material value (or even "junk") that have immense emotional value to the giver are often the preferred gifts by the spirits.

                              For a Kin who grew up in poverty or is having trouble scraping the rent together each month (or for a Kin who needs a chiminage gift to give on the spot and is at a disadvantage compared to the Garou Theurges in knowing spirit correspondences), I'd think money would actually be a good stand by.


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