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Anyone think Rage is a bit too powerful?

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  • #16
    Originally posted by stanlemon View Post
    First off my ST does bring up the downsides, he just doesn't go draconian on them requiring a Rage roll for every minor thing preferring to require it when it make sense to the story and character.
    Originally posted by stanlemon View Post
    And to bring back the Curse factor you brought up, not all ST even bother much with focusing on player/human reactions which would basically make the Curse a non-issue. I prefer having those interactions in games but plenty of people don't and just want to focus on a story of combat or exploration or something else so in those games then Rage's cheapness makes it very powerful.
    Originally posted by Saur Ops Specialist View Post
    Again, if the ST doesn't bother, and further doesn't replace it with another drawback, this isn't the game's fault. It let you know that it was only balanced via drawbacks from the get-go. In the end, it's also noted as being a deadly advantage, though, so that it lives up to its hype is hitting the target dead center. On the flip side, you can also end up blowing it all in two turns and not having its benefits for a while, but still suffering its drawbacks due to a high permanent rating.
    I think Bunyip beat me to the punch a little, but here is the problem you are facing in a nutshell - The frustrating downsides to having rage are not being called upon often enough, or narrated to you.

    And in some ways, you're right, the Garou nation doesn't function if you look at all the issues; but that's why they have rules, and send emissaries who are skilled at speaking to werewolves instead of the rage-monsters doing it themselves.
    - At a Moot, there are rituals and rites in place to burn off all the extra rage that those little insults may cause, and the perfect social pressure to be spending your willpower to resist those Frenzies.
    The Philodox all work hard to keep it running without unanswered insults or attacks and can talk people down before they get too furry




    My Vampire ST has the same problem with a long term Vampire game not feeling "Vampire" enough. He almost never calls us to roll for self control against frenzies (similar to rage triggers, but we roll to resist a frenzy, we don't buy up being more prone to kill someone over an insult, we get better at resisting our beast)
    We don't drain people empty because we're hungry or kill because we're threatened, because he doesn't make us roll it often enough.

    As PCs in both cases, you don't want random chance taking your player agency away from you, but that's something that Werewolves and Vampires should always be under threat of.

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    • #17
      Originally posted by Illithid View Post
      talk people down before they get too furry
      Literally or figuratively?

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      • #18
        stanlemon
        In general, others have already presented good points. It might also be that you're just rolling pretty good. How much Rage does your character have? At 6 points and full moon, an Ahroun frenzies 90% of all Rage rolls (difficulty 3 is a female wolf). At half moon, it's still one third of rolls.

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        • #19
          Originally posted by Cifer View Post
          stanlemon
          In general, others have already presented good points. It might also be that you're just rolling pretty good. How much Rage does your character have? At 6 points and full moon, an Ahroun frenzies 90% of all Rage rolls (difficulty 3 is a female wolf). At half moon, it's still one third of rolls.

          Where does the rule of a diff 3 for a female wolf come from? Also I thought with all the modifiers (if its your auspice, being in crinos, ect) it couldn't drop below 4....or was that a revised only rule that W20 dropped?

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          • #20
            I was originally not going to pop in, because people have largely said the direct response I had: Rage's power is off-set by it's drawbacks.

            However, I'm going to say that Rage is too powerful and too weak at the same time. Or rather, there's too much bundled up into one stat. By shoving all that power into Rage, and trying to balance it out by tagging so many weaknesses to Rage, you create a very unwieldy system that causes a lot of issues. For all we like to say, "well is your ST using all the drawbacks of Rage as written?" that's great if your ST has been doing this for years and knows all the rules by heart. But there's a lot of rules to remember for Rage, and it's easy to forget to apply the Cure, and the Beast Within, and Frenzy checks, and when the difficulty depends on moon and when it doesn't, and when you replace Rage for Intimidation and risk Frenzy, and you can't spend Rage and Gnosis at the same time... like holy shit that's a lot of stuff one stat has to juggle.

            The nature of how Rage works also heavily incentivizes going to either extreme of Rage, which is also a problem because it means those that pick low Rage to skip death-blender and good odds of Remaining Active, basically don't have to deal with the supposed universal drawbacks of being a werewolf. Rage 1-3 makes almost all the drawbacks extremely irrelevant to your character outside of the ST working to really contrive your character into situations where it will matter (and that kind of antagonism isn't great for playing the game for most people). Once you're at Rage 5 or 6... the drawbacks are so high you might as well go higher and get more power out of it.

            So, from a design perspective, Rage is too powerful in the sense that the need to give it drawbacks piles on too much in one place in the game, which impedes rather than aids playing the kinds of stories the game is supposed to be for.

            Though, Garou society doesn't fall apart, and the 'drawbacks!' response is blunted by the number of easily accessed ways in the game to circumvent, reduce, or mitigate those drawbacks.

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            • #21
              Originally posted by CeltSPZ View Post
              Where does the rule of a diff 3 for a female wolf come from? Also I thought with all the modifiers (if its your auspice, being in crinos, ect) it couldn't drop below 4....or was that a revised only rule that W20 dropped?
              Full moon is difficulty 4, full moon for an Ahroun (or Full Moon in Crinos) drops to 3 and rolling less than 4 successes against 3 is... a bitch.

              Heavy Arms
              The nature of how Rage works also heavily incentivizes going to either extreme of Rage, which is also a problem because it means those that pick low Rage to skip death-blender and good odds of Remaining Active, basically don't have to deal with the supposed universal drawbacks of being a werewolf. Rage 1-3 makes almost all the drawbacks extremely irrelevant to your character outside of the ST working to really contrive your character into situations where it will matter (and that kind of antagonism isn't great for playing the game for most people). Once you're at Rage 5 or 6... the drawbacks are so high you might as well go higher and get more power out of it.
              Actually, I think the sweet spot is a little greater than that. Extremely small Rage (1 or 2) is good for social characters mostly. Rage 3 is the last point where it's absolutely certain you won't frenzy. Anything above that will have to take precautions (high Gnosis and WP), but since rising in Rank makes it harder to frenzy, you can get away with a little more Rage every time you rank up - and of course, there's still a difference between a good chance of getting 4 successes and frenzying and getting 6 successes and thralling.

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              • #22
                Originally posted by Cifer View Post
                Full moon is difficulty 4, full moon for an Ahroun (or Full Moon in Crinos) drops to 3 and rolling less than 4 successes against 3 is... a bitch.

                Heavy Arms
                Actually, I think the sweet spot is a little greater than that. Extremely small Rage (1 or 2) is good for social characters mostly. Rage 3 is the last point where it's absolutely certain you won't frenzy. Anything above that will have to take precautions (high Gnosis and WP), but since rising in Rank makes it harder to frenzy, you can get away with a little more Rage every time you rank up - and of course, there's still a difference between a good chance of getting 4 successes and frenzying and getting 6 successes and thralling.
                Don't 10s overroll for your rage?

                There has to be some way a ragabash frenzies for their first change

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                • #23
                  [QUOTE=Cifer;n1222688] against 3 is... a bitch.

                  Heavy Arms

                  *head desk* right, pun....not a rule

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Cifer View Post
                    Extremely small Rage (1 or 2) is good for social characters mostly.
                    Social here is a lot broader than most people would interpret it though (since this includes interacting with spirits and other werewolves, not just being able to be social at humans). And it's actually pretty important for a lot of things that can prompt excess Rage and/or Frenzy checks if you're not careful (ex: Klaive making).

                    Anything above that will have to take precautions (high Gnosis and WP), but since rising in Rank makes it harder to frenzy, you can get away with a little more Rage every time you rank up - and of course, there's still a difference between a good chance of getting 4 successes and frenzying and getting 6 successes and thralling.
                    This is a bit exaggerated. Ranks 1 and 2 don't have any bonuses. Ranks 3 and 4 alter Frenzy difficulties, which doesn't make more dots in Rage that much safer. It's only 5 and 6 that increase your successes to Frenzy so that you could increase Rage without having enough base Rage to Frenzy.

                    And the Rank bonuses only help you with Frenzy checks, it doesn't impact things like the Curse or the Beast Within.

                    Originally posted by Illithid View Post
                    Don't 10s overroll for your rage?

                    There has to be some way a ragabash frenzies for their first change
                    10s don't.

                    First changes don't really follow the normal rules, and temporary points of Rage can increase over permanent dots in Rage. So a Ragabash can have permanent Rage 1, but events could unfold so that they have 4 temporary Rage, and during that time they could roll 4 successes and Frenzy.

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                    • #25
                      Can they spend that extra rage, if they dont frenzy?


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                      • #26
                        Correct. If they spend the excess Rage before they're prompted to roll for Frenzy, standard Frenzy checks aren't a concern.

                        Though this does get into a bit of a questionable 'metagaming' issue. Werewolves that have excess Rage should have some sense of this being the case, and if they have the time and circumstances, they'd be smart to go burn it off in some fashion (play fighting with packmates, finding some minor Wyrm critter to smash, whatever). But they shouldn't know that they have 4 temporary Rage and that's the magic number that makes Frenzies possible in a practical sense. But the players will all know that... so... yeah. It's obviously down to group playstyle on this, but I'd prefer a system that doesn't force groups to decide how much they want to let the players game out this sort of thing.

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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Cifer View Post
                          stanlemon
                          In general, others have already presented good points. It might also be that you're just rolling pretty good. How much Rage does your character have? At 6 points and full moon, an Ahroun frenzies 90% of all Rage rolls (difficulty 3 is a female wolf). At half moon, it's still one third of rolls.
                          Even at the Ahroun auspice's baseline of 5 rage dots, the ahroun still suffers a 73% chance to frenzy any rage roll during the full moon, and in Crinos it has to be a crescent or new moon to get his chances to frenzy under 33% when rolling rage; his alternative is to have already "burned" some of his rage off.

                          With only 4 points of rage, any werewolf in the Crinos form on a full moon has over a 40% chance to frenzy. This leads me to guess that the OP, who says his characters have never frenzied, either always plays characters with 3 or less dots of permanent Rage, or is not counting the times his character has spent Willpower to stop the frenzy. But 3 dots of Rage or less is limited to three of the five auspices, and it's reasonable to expect that many of those three auspices have more than the bare minimum. There's really no rule against having a high-rage Ragabash, and it doesn't take a lot of experience points (or freebies at character creation) to get a Ragabash character up to 4 dots, much less to get a Philodox to the 4-dot threshold.

                          So yes Rage is awesome, kind of like dynamite is awesome.
                          Last edited by Wilson; 05-30-2018, 12:48 AM. Reason: edited for accuracy

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                          • #28
                            Originally posted by stanlemon View Post
                            I have been off these forums for a while so I'm sorry if this was brought up before but I'm just curious what others thought. In our games we've had Rage has proven to be an almost too powerful of a stat with the ease of replenishment and abilities it confers. We've had to house rule a few aspects of it such as raising the xp costs and a few other things to keep it from causing too many problems.
                            My table's storyteller decided to give us the option to swap out the xp cost for buying more rage with the xp cost for buying more gnosis, making it more expensive to increase rage and less expensive to increase gnosis, but we had to make that decision permanent. Is that similar to the house rule your table uses?

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                            • #29
                              Originally posted by Wilson View Post

                              Even at the Ahroun auspice's baseline of 5 rage dots, the ahroun still suffers a 73% chance to frenzy any rage roll during the full moon, and in Crinos it has to be a crescent or new moon to get his chances to frenzy under 33% when rolling rage; his alternative is to have already "burned" some of his rage off.

                              With only 4 points of rage, any werewolf in the Crinos form on a full moon has over a 40% chance to frenzy. This leads me to guess that the OP, who says his characters have never frenzied, either always plays characters with 3 or less dots of permanent Rage, or is not counting the times his character has spent Willpower to stop the frenzy. But 3 dots of Rage or less is limited to three of the five auspices, and it's reasonable to expect that many of those three auspices have more than the bare minimum. There's really no rule against having a high-rage Ragabash, and it doesn't take a lot of experience points (or freebies at character creation) to get a Ragabash character up to 4 dots, much less to get a Philodox to the 4-dot threshold.

                              So yes Rage is awesome, kind of like dynamite is awesome.
                              The most Rage a single character of mine has had is 7 and even then the most successes I've had on a Rage roll has been like 3. I'll admit that we mostly used the phase the moon was on to determine what it was in game (excluding times where it didn't make sense like if one session's events followed immediately after another's) which made Full Moons somewhat rare it still had a decent number of Gibbous Moons. The rare times someone did Frenzy though we were able to subdue them.

                              Wilson no we simply made Rage cost as much as Gnosis.

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