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  • How would you do W5?

    Title says it all, what changes would you make and why?

    Me, I'd delete the Red Talons. They cause lots of problems in every campaign I run, due to being a really good excuse to do the murderhobo.

  • #2
    OK, this might see a bit pedantic, but are you asking how would we revise WtA in a new edition in general, or specifically how we'd approach W5 within the paradigm of what we know from the previews for V5? Because those are two very different things for me.

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    • #3
      I think for one thing we need new traits.


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      • #4
        Originally posted by Heavy Arms View Post
        OK, this might see a bit pedantic, but are you asking how would we revise WtA in a new edition in general, or specifically how we'd approach W5 within the paradigm of what we know from the previews for V5? Because those are two very different things for me.

        First one, please.

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        • #5
          I want nothing to do with deleting the Red Talons. or wiping them out.


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          • #6
            Bunyip and Croatan tribebook.


            Project consolidation:
            Rough Draft: Dhole Shifters, Ottawa By Night, Tribebook Bunyip, Garou Variant
            In redaction: Lasombra Bloodline

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            • #7
              Change name of Metis, change name of Pure Breed, make the W:tA-specific threat of climate change encroachment of water-born antagonists like the Chulorviah and not some bizarre increase to the Gauntlet...

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              • #8
                Considering how much V5 is being a let down, I don't have much hope for W5. That said, I wouldn't remove the Red Talons but I would change them a bit. I'd reduce the human hating aspects and have them focus more on being spiritual and a return to nature sort of demeanor (not in a destroy all humanity way obviously). Have them focus more on the natural ebb and flow of the wild and protect against encroachment.

                Additionally I'd tone down Agg. Damage considerably. One way would be that they don't automatically do that kind of damage with their claws and teeth (maybe spend a point of gnosis to gain it for a scene at least, not sure yet but something to make it cost something).

                I'd also bring into question more the validity of their holy war. Have their myths and legends conflict more with the other Fera and even with Tribal interpretations. Also less Wyld good and Weaver bad. I've always had a problem with WoD interpretation that science, technology, and progress are inherently stifling and damaging (I know later material tried to correct this some but it was always there regardless) and that anything 'natural' is inherently good. As for the Wyrm, I'd still keep it as the enemy that is insane and they are fighting all the worst representations of ruin and destruction but also have the good aspects of decay present as well (which the books like to mention but never represent)

                Lastly, I'd build upon the internal strife of Garou society as traditionalists are being challenged by new ideas and generations and that Garou society has serious skeletons in their closet and being forced to choose between admitting their faults and wrongdoings and having to make amends or hold steadfast to the beliefs they have held so long and risk a civil war.

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by stanlemon View Post
                  Considering how much V5 is being a let down, I don't have much hope for W5. That said, I wouldn't remove the Red Talons but I would change them a bit. I'd reduce the human hating aspects and have them focus more on being spiritual and a return to nature sort of demeanor (not in a destroy all humanity way obviously). Have them focus more on the natural ebb and flow of the wild and protect against encroachment.

                  Additionally I'd tone down Agg. Damage considerably. One way would be that they don't automatically do that kind of damage with their claws and teeth (maybe spend a point of gnosis to gain it for a scene at least, not sure yet but something to make it cost something).

                  I'd also bring into question more the validity of their holy war. Have their myths and legends conflict more with the other Fera and even with Tribal interpretations.
                  This point in particular would really undermine the game. It's not a question of whether you should, but of the process you take.

                  Also less Wyld good and Weaver bad.
                  This point happened in Revised, which introduced a blanket policy of "don't trust the Triat". Albrecht's reaction to the number of gorgons on the rise is not one of elation but of "shiiiiiiit."

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Saur Ops Specialist View Post

                    This point in particular would really undermine the game. It's not a question of whether you should, but of the process you take.
                    The method I would try would be to bring more ambiguity into the game. Sure the Garou truly believe what they do is right raise the question of if they are. They are fighting a force that is doing considerable damage to the world yes, but in the process they have arguably done more to hurt their cause than their enemies ever have. It's already been brought up in source material that the Fera have a different view on the Triat and Gaia than the Garou do and that they believe the Garou are wrong in their religious fanaticism even if the Fera are fighting the same war in their own ways and sometimes to the point of their own fanaticism.

                    This point happened in Revised, which introduced a blanket policy of "don't trust the Triat". Albrecht's reaction to the number of gorgons on the rise is not one of elation but of "shiiiiiiit."
                    And I would like to expand on it. Although they started to do that in Revised I personally feel it didn't get fully established. Additionally I'd like to show the good and bad in all thee aspects of the Triat more and their relation with humanity. I'd like to show how humanity can reflect all of them. Humanities capacity to create, perfect, and destroy.

                    Also, your description of Albrecht's reaction was gold.

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Froggo View Post
                      First one, please.
                      Well, there's two general things, the second largely including the first:

                      1) If I was to do a new edition, with the expectation that like 2e, Rev. and W20, any setting changes would be minor improvements and corrections over big retcons, my focus would be on the following (we've had old thread about a lot of these were I've voiced my thoughts in much more detail):

                      - Continue to refine the Tribes with eyes towards historical/cultural accuracy, internal narrative consistency (schisms and hypocrisy are fine as long as it's supposed to be so), and better playability. The Red Talons are a big focus, though my preference is to make their motivations more lupine and less human, and making them the 'Wyld' Tribe in contrast to the Glasswalkers being the "Weaver" Tribe. Though all the Tribes need work.

                      - Expand the treatment of Garou society to make it easier on different playstyles. Make Sept and pack structures more varied, variable, and unique with more tools for building such.

                      - General house rules I'd want to use to refine the ST system in general.

                      - Refine the character creation rules to have less wonky incentives. No more Rage 1/Gnosis 1/Willpower 3 vs. Rage 5/Gnosis 5/Willpower 4 just for your Auspice/Breed/Tribe selections.

                      - Simplify rules like what forms do what damage, or can soak things to be more consistent and have less things to remember.

                      - Redo Pure-Breed, probably as two things instead of one. WtA generally does better with the Backgrounds than some of the other games.

                      - Do my best to reduce the Gift lists (which are currently huge) by looking for ones overlapping in concept and condensing them. Also the endless efforts to tweak them better.

                      - Rework Rage to function more in the "opposite" direction so Frenzies are failed rolls, not successful ones. This makes it easier to ensure low Rage characters still have a chance to Frenzy. As well, cut down on Rage's "lots and lots of bonuses tied to lots and lots of drawbacks" nature.

                      - Redo the Renown system completely to better reflect what it's supposed to do and mean in-character.

                      - Redo the Moot function to have more player activities to deal with (esp. for LARPs and similar style games where Moots are going to be played out on a regular basis instead of just when something big happens).

                      - Rework Rituals/Rites eliminate narrative and low-mechanics rites as things you have to buy (yes this is a theme). Allow players to just roll Attribute + Rituals for things like Talisman Dedication, and so on, rather than having to spend points on them. Focus rites you buy on ones that have major impact on the state of the game. Dump minor rites for an 'oath' system where characters perform taboos or daily rituals in a more customized fashion rather than just a list of them.

                      - Totem building rules, and Totems that abide by them. Five pages of how to make your own Totems are better than 30 pages of sample Totems most people will never use.

                      2) If I'm tossing all the previous editions aside?

                      - Dump the unified Garou Nation for multiple large scale geographic factions, most of which are currently working together under the more UN-like concept of the Garou Nation. Use this to have more sensible lexicons and take out weird/bad/etc. terms (like Metis). Very few Tribes would be limited to just one, and none of them would outright exclude Garou based on Tribe (The Pure Ones would have had Red Talons and Bone Gnawers long before Europeans arrived... and maybe even a few Get pre-Colombus).

                      - Expand the Garou to incorporate more canids naturally rather than just "wolves" to help make them more global in a less strained way. This would include putting the Nuwisha as a group within the Garou instead of a separate Fera breed. Possibly condense a few Tribes into camps of the same Tribe esp. separated by the larger groups above.

                      - Detail early Garou history pre-Tribes to better frame how the Tribes came into existence, and why some are more focused on specific human cultures, and others focus on social groups the exist in most (if not all) human cultures.

                      - Completely redo Gifts from the ground up.

                      - Make the Garou a bit more spiritually inclined via mechanics. This would be things like a Fetish not being a magical item that's powered by a spirit, but actual items of connection to a spirit that boost/allow access to Gift functions. Probably something close to how Scion (specifically 2e) links Relics (magical items) to Purviews (divine powers).

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                      • #12
                        oh a few ideas?

                        give breeds tribes and auspices Advantages not tied to a starting dot value Way they did CTD 20

                        that prevents people from taking lupus just to get 5 starting gnosis.


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                        • #13
                          Heavy Arms nailed a lot of the points I'd make, but here are some of my own;

                          -Outsider garou factions that aren't lost cubs, BSDs or ronin. Various takes on being a werewolf, from those wanting to cure their condition to those who think they are cursed.
                          --As an addition, add some traditional werewolves that could stand opposite to the garou. Giving those who want to play a cursed being over a furry blender as an option.
                          -Red Talons are only murderhobo if they aren't given actual ties. Most of the games are very city and human focused, so a look into what one can do with wolves/coywolves/wolfdogs outside living props would be great.
                          -Related to the above, discussion on the whole hybridization of american wolves vs european wolves. What does this mean for the garou and the nuwisha?
                          -Showcase why the alpha-myth is dangerous to wolves, dogs and humans. Showcase how such cruel posturing scares regular wolves away.


                          My gallery.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by stanlemon View Post

                            The method I would try would be to bring more ambiguity into the game. Sure the Garou truly believe what they do is right raise the question of if they are. They are fighting a force that is doing considerable damage to the world yes, but in the process they have arguably done more to hurt their cause than their enemies ever have. It's already been brought up in source material that the Fera have a different view on the Triat and Gaia than the Garou do and that they believe the Garou are wrong in their religious fanaticism even if the Fera are fighting the same war in their own ways and sometimes to the point of their own fanaticism.

                            And I would like to expand on it. Although they started to do that in Revised I personally feel it didn't get fully established. Additionally I'd like to show the good and bad in all thee aspects of the Triat more and their relation with humanity. I'd like to show how humanity can reflect all of them. Humanities capacity to create, perfect, and destroy.

                            Also, your description of Albrecht's reaction was gold.
                            W:tA is already stretched as far as it can go on the issue of ambiguity of the Garou mission and the hazards of having to prop up the Wyld. The books constantly hammer home how the Garou are doomed because they didn't cooperate with the Fera but instead killed them, and there was an entire book on the hazards of propping up the Wyld (the Book of the Wyld), as well as sections of other books that underlined that even though it had to be supported as the weak side in a cosmic struggle, it's not an ally as such (Storyteller's Handbook, Possessed).

                            Also, humans are not going to come out of anything looking good in W:tA. The premise of the game started with "corporate despoilers of the wilderness should be killed by savage, shapeshifting wolf monsters for their misdeeds", so trumpeting the good points of humanity is not a thing it's going to be spending much time on. If you want an exploration of a metaphysical trinity's relation to humans, that's what Mage is largely for.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Saur Ops Specialist View Post

                              W:tA is already stretched as far as it can go on the issue of ambiguity of the Garou mission and the hazards of having to prop up the Wyld. The books constantly hammer home how the Garou are doomed because they didn't cooperate with the Fera but instead killed them, and there was an entire book on the hazards of propping up the Wyld (the Book of the Wyld), as well as sections of other books that underlined that even though it had to be supported as the weak side in a cosmic struggle, it's not an ally as such (Storyteller's Handbook, Possessed).
                              I disagree with your assessment of the ambiguity. While they did start bringing it up, it never really did much beyond point out that it exists, at least as far as the Garou are concerned. Later breed books brought it up more but when it came to the Garou it ultimately still treated the Garou as right and that the Fera should still submit to them. They ultimately are a group of religious fanatics and I would treat them as such, however they do have a lot more backing in the way that they do commune with their spirits and the like giving them a lot more validity than can be said for real world groups. The 'but' here is that they are still relying heavily on personal interpretation and tradition and those aren't necessarily correct.

                              Also, humans are not going to come out of anything looking good in W:tA. The premise of the game started with "corporate despoilers of the wilderness should be killed by savage, shapeshifting wolf monsters for their misdeeds", so trumpeting the good points of humanity is not a thing it's going to be spending much time on. If you want an exploration of a metaphysical trinity's relation to humans, that's what Mage is largely for.
                              That's one of the prevailing problems. It treats humans and the villains primarily as one dimensional Captain Planet villains. It would do well to add to the complexity and depth. Garou thinking of humanity in such simple ways a large part of what has caused their problems in the first place. Yes, in the game there is an evil company run by worshipers of an insane cosmic force intent on destroying creation but the problems of pollution are far more complex than Werewolf treats them. The game treats humanity as a strawman in general though and that is a detriment to the game.

                              On a side note, I would also have Delirium start failing randomly forcing Garou and other Fera to be more careful about the Veil.

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