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  • #16
    I think it's worth considering that when discussing a new edition, some of us might be thinking more about what we'd put up-front in the core book. Lots of stuff is somewhere in some supplement for some edition, but if people aren't collectors, they might never see it. The hazards of propping up the Wyld, for example, shouldn't be a supplement issue. It should be a core issue to help support that the ideal state is the Triat in balance, not the Garou picking sides. It's one of the like the idea of the Red Talons as the "Wyld" Tribe over the "anti-human" Tribe is that it allows that conversation to be up front in the description of them, then later books can detail the dangers of Wyld spirits, Gorgons, and so on as expansion of that.

    I also don't think stanlemon means making humanity look good in WtA, but rather make things more nuanced by having human connection to the Triat be more fluid. Things like rather than "inner city slum = Weaver area tainted by the Wyrm," also present things like Wyld influenced parts of the city where social order breaks down, leading to drug use that Wyld spirits feed off uncaring about the harm this causes. It doesn't have to be bright and shiny, just more complicated than there being a bad guy to smash that will actually fix things.

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    • #17
      This is UTTERLY self-indulgent, utterly minor and all that. But..

      Actually discuss the whole concept of dog ownership and what does the Nation think of it. Because I've seen/read/argued so many times over this online and I think it is a pretty big blindspot in the setting. At the same time, the discussion could go into what that makes the wolfdogs/coywolfdogs that sso many american wolves are these days.

      Personally, I'd say that the Nation sees dog-ownership as the ultimate sign of Weaver-taint. As it is enslaving what is essentially weaver-tainted wolves.


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      • #18
        1) As said earlier, remove the Stargazer Lupus Ahroun equation.

        2) In an earlier post, I had stated I'd prefer that the Garou Nation be less monolithic and more local.

        3) Fewer Caerns, more Protectorates.

        4) Less 'Noble Savage' and 'the Pure Ones are the Epitome of Goodness' mentality.

        5) Less War of Rage, more Wars of Rage. Spread out, taking place over the course of centuries. Less THIS ONE EVENT did it, and more 'large predators sharing resources'. Less 'wiped out in a few years' and more 'died out over centuries.

        6) Pure Breed more Spiritual, less Physical.

        7) Gift Groupings. Some might fall into multiple categories. Command, Fire, Spirit, Stealth. This would make inclusion in later splats easier to handle. (IE Philodox get an XP bonus to Command. As do Simba and Crowned Mokole. Galliards to Stealth, as to Anasasi.) The XP bonus could apply to the grouping or the spirit teaching it.(IE, Members of Pegasus Brood give the bonus to Black Furies.)

        8) Camps are Cross Tribe. IE, Valkries will take on any Female, while Immenent Strike would take anyone who prefers frontline action.


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        • #19
          Originally posted by EvilTyger View Post

          7) Gift Groupings. Some might fall into multiple categories. Command, Fire, Spirit, Stealth. This would make inclusion in later splats easier to handle. (IE Philodox get an XP bonus to Command. As do Simba and Crowned Mokole. Galliards to Stealth, as to Anasasi.) The XP bonus could apply to the grouping or the spirit teaching it.(IE, Members of Pegasus Brood give the bonus to Black Furies.)
          Oh man, this would be great. I've done a lot of rants among my friends about how poorly made I feel the Crowned gift list has been. Only snag could be would it cut down on Fera breed specific gifts?

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          • #20
            Originally posted by EvilTyger View Post
            1) As said earlier, remove the Stargazer Lupus Ahroun equation.

            2) In an earlier post, I had stated I'd prefer that the Garou Nation be less monolithic and more local.

            3) Fewer Caerns, more Protectorates.

            4) Less 'Noble Savage' and 'the Pure Ones are the Epitome of Goodness' mentality.

            5) Less War of Rage, more Wars of Rage. Spread out, taking place over the course of centuries. Less THIS ONE EVENT did it, and more 'large predators sharing resources'. Less 'wiped out in a few years' and more 'died out over centuries.

            6) Pure Breed more Spiritual, less Physical.

            7) Gift Groupings. Some might fall into multiple categories. Command, Fire, Spirit, Stealth. This would make inclusion in later splats easier to handle. (IE Philodox get an XP bonus to Command. As do Simba and Crowned Mokole. Galliards to Stealth, as to Anasasi.) The XP bonus could apply to the grouping or the spirit teaching it.(IE, Members of Pegasus Brood give the bonus to Black Furies.)

            8) Camps are Cross Tribe. IE, Valkries will take on any Female, while Immenent Strike would take anyone who prefers frontline action.
            I like bullets (2), (5), and (8), and the others are interesting but I have some questions.

            I understand the motive of (1), but how would you implement it? Would you narrow the range of starting dots in Rage and Gnosis, or would you tie the breed and auspice differences to something else, or would you do away with the differences entirely and have all breeds, aupsices, and tribes start with a base 1 dot in Rage, Gnosis, and Willpower?

            When you say "fewer caerns," do you mean a smaller list of caerns named in the source books, or some kind of limit to the number and rank of caerns a storyteller should create during his or her own world building?

            Don't you think bullet (4) is a matter of perspective that the "Pure" tribes indulge in, but the other tribes don't buy into? I mean whatever the Wendigo say, the Get of Fenris aren't going to accept being called "Wyrmcomers" by the "Pure Ones."

            How would you make Pure Breed less physical? Would you have it take effect only in the Umbra?

            It seems like grouping gifts as you suggest tends to turn them into something more like Abilities. Would you also want to replace the breed-auspice-tribe association with group categories, or would you associate the breeds, auspices, and tribes with these groups? I'm concerned that adding a "group category" to the nature of gifts wouldn't be worth the added complication

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            • #21
              Originally posted by Heavy Arms View Post
              1) If I was to do a new edition...

              - Continue to refine the Tribes with eyes towards historical/cultural accuracy, internal narrative consistency (schisms and hypocrisy are fine as long as it's supposed to be so), and better playability. The Red Talons are a big focus, though my preference is to make their motivations more lupine and less human, and making them the 'Wyld' Tribe in contrast to the Glasswalkers being the "Weaver" Tribe. Though all the Tribes need work.

              ...

              - Simplify rules like what forms do what damage, or can soak things to be more consistent and have less things to remember.

              ...

              - Rework Rage to function more in the "opposite" direction so Frenzies are failed rolls, not successful ones. This makes it easier to ensure low Rage characters still have a chance to Frenzy. As well, cut down on Rage's "lots and lots of bonuses tied to lots and lots of drawbacks" nature.

              ...

              2) If I'm tossing all the previous editions aside?

              - Dump the unified Garou Nation for multiple large scale geographic factions, most of which are currently working together under the more UN-like concept of the Garou Nation. Use this to have more sensible lexicons and take out weird/bad/etc. terms (like Metis). Very few Tribes would be limited to just one, and none of them would outright exclude Garou based on Tribe (The Pure Ones would have had Red Talons and Bone Gnawers long before Europeans arrived... and maybe even a few Get pre-Colombus).

              - Expand the Garou to incorporate more canids naturally rather than just "wolves" to help make them more global in a less strained way. This would include putting the Nuwisha as a group within the Garou instead of a separate Fera breed. Possibly condense a few Tribes into camps of the same Tribe esp. separated by the larger groups above.
              ...
              I don't want to make a wall of text, but I do want to reply ...

              I definitely don't want to get rid of the Red Talons, but their identity as the "kill all humans" tribe is problematic. I'd like to see them drop that image, and just be lupine and committed to saving the wilderness, in the same way that the Black Furies are female and committed to saving the downtrodden and abused, but aren't the stereotypical "feminazi" man-haters.

              I agree completely that, whatever happens with the next edition, the creators should feel obliged to clarify how the forms deal and soak damage, because in W20 it's messy and confusing at best.

              If you rework Rage to cause frenzy with failed rolls, that will cause lower-rage characters to frenzy more easily, and give the very high-rage Ahrouns almost no chance to frenzy. What if you just add frenzy as the effect of a "botched" rage roll? That would give low-rage characters a chance to frenzy without adding much risk to the high-rage characters.

              I like the idea of dumping the unified Garou Nation and replacing it with geographic factions, but I wouldn't expect this to happen unless living werewolves numbered in the millions rather than the thousands or tens of thousands. It makes sense to me that a species that knows it's endangered would want to unify as much as possible to preserve their survival, but if the Garou weren't so existentially endangered, they'd feel less pressure to get along, and find it easier to ignore the other side of the world. To get around this question of numbers, how would you feel about allowing other Fera, like Corax, Ajaba, or Nuwisha, to participate in those factions? Would this become something like the Asian Beast Courts, and would you be okay with that? What about having some of the camps accept members from several tribes?

              Speaking of Nuwisha, I'd also like to see them become more like a unique tribe of Garou than a separate breed of Fera, to reflect the natural coyote's membership in the "canine soup" with wolves and dogs, but converting them into Garou would mean a serious overhaul of them in the rule book. I guess that's why you put that suggestion into the "toss all previous editions aside" list.

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              • #22
                Originally posted by Wilson View Post
                I understand the motive of (1), but how would you implement it?
                Something I made to plug into the system as is:

                http://forum.theonyxpath.com/forum/m...ing-advantages

                It's not the only way, but it's not exactly hard to do.

                Don't you think bullet (4) is a matter of perspective that the "Pure" tribes indulge in, but the other tribes don't buy into? I mean whatever the Wendigo say, the Get of Fenris aren't going to accept being called "Wyrmcomers" by the "Pure Ones."
                I don't think EvilTyger meant in-character, but the out-of-character writing of the game. WtA has a history of the Noble Savage cliche. This reduces non-Western, and ancient cultures to narrow stereotypes - even if positive ones in phrasing - and is really very insulting to the actual history and cultures being referenced.

                How would you make Pure Breed less physical? Would you have it take effect only in the Umbra?
                Pure Breed is two things. It's a spiritual connection to the ideals and ancestors of your Tribe, and a physical marker of looking like the heroes and specific physical features associated with your Tribe. Less physical usually means dropping the second part and focusing on the first.

                It seems like grouping gifts as you suggest tends to turn them into something more like Abilities. Would you also want to replace the breed-auspice-tribe association with group categories, or would you associate the breeds, auspices, and tribes with these groups? I'm concerned that adding a "group category" to the nature of gifts wouldn't be worth the added complication
                I believe the idea would be to give Gifts a set of Keywords. Instead of having lists by splat, you'd have association by keywords. The game play effect would largely be the same, as it's more of an organizational matter.

                Originally posted by Wilson View Post
                I'd like to see them drop that image, and just be lupine and committed to saving the wilderness,...
                My issue with this approach (and why I favor my "Wyld Tribe" thing) is that it leaves the Red Talons with no real identity. Every Tribe has lupus born members. Even the Glasswalkers care about the environment. What makes a pack of Red Talons (where they're just 'lupine and into saving the wilderness) and different from a rurl pack of all Lupus and Metis Black Furies? In practice... basically nothing but Tribal Gifts.

                I agree completely that, whatever happens with the next edition, the creators should feel obliged to clarify how the forms deal and soak damage, because in W20 it's messy and confusing at best.
                It was confusing before that too.

                If you rework Rage to cause frenzy with failed rolls, that will cause lower-rage characters to frenzy more easily, and give the very high-rage Ahrouns almost no chance to frenzy. What if you just add frenzy as the effect of a "botched" rage roll? That would give low-rage characters a chance to frenzy without adding much risk to the high-rage characters.
                It's obviously a bit more work than that. You'd have things like the effect of Crinos and the moonphase. A Ragabash rolling 1 die at difficulty 3 is going to fail 20% of the time. An Ahroun rolling 10 dice at difficulty 9 is going to fail ~40% of the time. It needs more work than this, but I hope this illustrate the point.

                I like the idea of dumping the unified Garou Nation and replacing it with geographic factions, but I wouldn't expect this to happen unless living werewolves numbered in the millions rather than the thousands or tens of thousands. It makes sense to me that a species that knows it's endangered would want to unify as much as possible to preserve their survival, but if the Garou weren't so existentially endangered, they'd feel less pressure to get along, and find it easier to ignore the other side of the world. To get around this question of numbers, how would you feel about allowing other Fera, like Corax, Ajaba, or Nuwisha, to participate in those factions? Would this become something like the Asian Beast Courts, and would you be okay with that? What about having some of the camps accept members from several tribes?
                1) There's a reason why I would keep the Garou Nation born of the modern threat to populations the Garou are facing. I called it "UN-like" for a reason. There's an obvious need for such a body, but it's hard to make effective.

                2) Remember I'd also be expanding the species available to Garou to breed with significantly. Many of those canids aren't endangered. So this is less of an issue. Instead it becomes a point of conflict between the Tribes the are focused on breeding with specific canids like they do with specific human kin, and Tribes that breed with anything that can be kin.

                3) The state of Fera relations would be roughly the same because it creates variety. So you'd have everything from pretty much no relationships between the Garou and other Fera (Europe), to long standing cooperation as a unified group (South east Asia), and lots of options in between. With seven geographic factions in my current mental set up (roughly based on the continents with Asia getting two) there's a lot of room for this that can be based heavily on the realities of things on the ground.

                I guess that's why you put that suggestion into the "toss all previous editions aside" list.
                Yep.

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by Heavy Arms View Post
                  1) There's a reason why I would keep the Garou Nation born of the modern threat to populations the Garou are facing. I called it "UN-like" for a reason. There's an obvious need for such a body, but it's hard to make effective.

                  2) Remember I'd also be expanding the species available to Garou to breed with significantly. Many of those canids aren't endangered. So this is less of an issue. Instead it becomes a point of conflict between the Tribes the are focused on breeding with specific canids like they do with specific human kin, and Tribes that breed with anything that can be kin.

                  3) The state of Fera relations would be roughly the same because it creates variety. So you'd have everything from pretty much no relationships between the Garou and other Fera (Europe), to long standing cooperation as a unified group (South east Asia), and lots of options in between. With seven geographic factions in my current mental set up (roughly based on the continents with Asia getting two) there's a lot of room for this that can be based heavily on the realities of things on the ground.
                  'La Nation Unie de Garou" might be even more difficult to make effective than the human UN, especially in the World of Darkness!

                  By expanding the species available for Garou to breed with significantly, I figure you'd at least include coyotes, and maybe dingoes, dogs, etc., as well as the African wild dogs that are already, I think, considered compatible with werewolves. So if a sept decides it's okay to breed with coyotes, and as a result a female coyote has a cub that "breeds true," would the cub become Garou or Nuwisha, or would it depend on ancestry? It would be rather strange to meet a Garou who looks like a coyote rather than a wolf. What about homid Garou or their human kinfolk deciding to get together with human Nuwisha kinfolk or homid Nuwisha, respectively? Would the kind of fera be determined by which is the mother, as it is with breed, or would the true Fera's blood trump the kin's blood, regardless of which is the mother? Or would you do something more complicated?
                  Last edited by Wilson; 06-20-2018, 03:58 PM.

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                  • #24
                    Well, an advantage to the Garou, is that they're naturally prone to falling into hierarchies rather than worrying about more democratic processes. The ability of the Silver Fangs to assert authority lets them push the Garou Nation on their local areas more effectively than humans can do.

                    As for expansion? I mean canids, as in generally the members of the Canidae, though if I were working in a group and there was pressure to limit to the Canini Tribe I would probably cave. This would mean wolves, dholes, wild dogs, coyotes, jackals, and foxes (yes, the Kitsune would, like the Nuwisha, become a unique localized group of Garou, rather than separate Fera). As for breeding? The default WtA answer still works for me: default with the mother if the choice is binary, otherwise mix as interesting. Remember we have things like coywolves around already. I mean, the Bastet work despite the massive variety of cats involved. The Garou can manage some genetic diversity.

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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Heavy Arms View Post
                      Well, an advantage to the Garou, is that they're naturally prone to falling into hierarchies rather than worrying about more democratic processes. The ability of the Silver Fangs to assert authority lets them push the Garou Nation on their local areas more effectively than humans can do.

                      As for expansion? I mean canids, as in generally the members of the Canidae, though if I were working in a group and there was pressure to limit to the Canini Tribe I would probably cave. This would mean wolves, dholes, wild dogs, coyotes, jackals, and foxes (yes, the Kitsune would, like the Nuwisha, become a unique localized group of Garou, rather than separate Fera). As for breeding? The default WtA answer still works for me: default with the mother if the choice is binary, otherwise mix as interesting. Remember we have things like coywolves around already. I mean, the Bastet work despite the massive variety of cats involved. The Garou can manage some genetic diversity.

                      If Kitsune are part of the group then "Unique and localized" variant should be "Garou" with how damned common foxes are.

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                      • #26
                        "Kitsune" in this case would be regional to mirror the Japanese mythology they draw from (just like the Nuwisha are rather focused on a more narrow set of Coyote myths than natural coyote territory). Yes, the red fox is the most wildly spread member of Canidae but the other foxes are generally fairly local species with grey wolves being far more wide spread until human culling (and even then still more so than many foxes). Most foxes in this setup would be normal "Garou" just like bobcats and tigers are bother normal Bastet.

                        Of course the general use terms like "fox," "dog," and, "wolf" get applied all over the place.

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                        • #27
                          The problem:

                          A huge number of players, STs and writers for the WtA line generally do not like how limiting Rage is towards garou getting a job. A lot of people want their garou having a job to define them further. The concept of a murder hobo is seen as negative, as well. Yet, that's what the garou are. Garou living in communes is seen as bad or wrong by some, to the point that even septs don't have living spaces.

                          All of which steps very heavily on the duties kinfolk do for the Nation, ASIDE from being breeding stock.

                          My solution:


                          1. Make Rage behave more Primal-Urge in Forsaken, letting the garou characters more freely to indulge in human ties. Put kinfolk roles to managing the core of whatever plan the garou have, rather than the sole providers of money. Of course, the higher rank the werewolf is, the scarier they are to humanity.


                          2. Double down in the role Kinfolk play and why garou have trouble with keeping a 9-5 job. Everything else is already well explained in the books.

                          Any other ideas on this?


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                          • #28
                            I mean, I'm sorta in the camp there, but not because of "jobs." The weird thing is that in modern times, its easier than ever to have a job despite Rage. There's also plenty of jobs where being scary isn't the worst thing on Earth. As I've said before, my bigger issue is that Rage is too much power with too much drawback, which makes it less fan to play (and locks lots of cool evocative stuff away for players that choose low Rage).

                            I mean, personally, I love the way Forsaken 2e handled these issues, and it's clear now that the WtA setup is just unnecessarily restrictive. Forsaken 2e dumps the taboo and werewolf couples completely (no Metis, no super-evil ghost babies), dumps the 'werewolves need to be seething with anger all the time such that normal folks instinctively fear them' thing, and manages to make wolf-blooded more important to packs,wolf-blooded more interesting to play, and werewolves are to an extent more scary for it.

                            The problem is that you can't replicate that without tossing out a lot of extant WtA stuff.

                            I guess I don't have any great ideas about this, because WtA has never had a "murderhobo" problem for me (PC Garou have jobs, and are tied to a very specific place, even if it's outside normal human society). I guess my solution would just to tighten up the writing to avoid things like Rage 5 elementary school teachers as sample starting characters, or Septs without living spaces within the Protectorate.

                            I guess one thing that could be done is flush out the lower standard positions of a Sept. A lot of the Sept positions detailed in the books are basically NPC stuff that's too high level for starting/new characters tot he Sept and/or too demanding on staying at the Sept for the default idea that the PC pack will be going around doing stuff outside the Sept.

                            This top heavy design is useful for STs crafting a Sept to ensure it can support the PCs, but it's not great for the players to feel their characters are fully integrated parts of the Sept community.

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                            • #29
                              Originally posted by Heavy Arms View Post
                              I mean, I'm sorta in the camp there, but not because of "jobs." The weird thing is that in modern times, its easier than ever to have a job despite Rage. There's also plenty of jobs where being scary isn't the worst thing on Earth. As I've said before, my bigger issue is that Rage is too much power with too much drawback, which makes it less fan to play (and locks lots of cool evocative stuff away for players that choose low Rage).

                              I mean, personally, I love the way Forsaken 2e handled these issues, and it's clear now that the WtA setup is just unnecessarily restrictive. Forsaken 2e dumps the taboo and werewolf couples completely (no Metis, no super-evil ghost babies), dumps the 'werewolves need to be seething with anger all the time such that normal folks instinctively fear them' thing, and manages to make wolf-blooded more important to packs,wolf-blooded more interesting to play, and werewolves are to an extent more scary for it.

                              The problem is that you can't replicate that without tossing out a lot of extant WtA stuff.

                              I guess I don't have any great ideas about this, because WtA has never had a "murderhobo" problem for me (PC Garou have jobs, and are tied to a very specific place, even if it's outside normal human society). I guess my solution would just to tighten up the writing to avoid things like Rage 5 elementary school teachers as sample starting characters, or Septs without living spaces within the Protectorate.

                              I guess one thing that could be done is flush out the lower standard positions of a Sept. A lot of the Sept positions detailed in the books are basically NPC stuff that's too high level for starting/new characters tot he Sept and/or too demanding on staying at the Sept for the default idea that the PC pack will be going around doing stuff outside the Sept.

                              This top heavy design is useful for STs crafting a Sept to ensure it can support the PCs, but it's not great for the players to feel their characters are fully integrated parts of the Sept community.
                              I don't mind garou having jobs that make sense for them, especially for lower Rage garou. For me, the problems arise when the jobs are things like a lawyer, psychologist or a elementary school teacher, jobs that need your commitment and where you are much more in the spotlight. Especially if non-homid.

                              Though the bigger reason I mused about this is that there are those who legit do NOT tolerate the idea of a moocher garou or anything related to that. Which then leads to the kinfolk issue and so on.

                              I mean, the SETTING is clear, it is just the player pushback that creates these issues XD


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                              • #30
                                give the garou a way to Adopt ordinary humans who strike them as worthy.


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