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  • #31
    Originally posted by Heavy Arms View Post
    I guess one thing that could be done is flush out the lower standard positions of a Sept. A lot of the Sept positions detailed in the books are basically NPC stuff that's too high level for starting/new characters tot he Sept and/or too demanding on staying at the Sept for the default idea that the PC pack will be going around doing stuff outside the Sept.

    This top heavy design is useful for STs crafting a Sept to ensure it can support the PCs, but it's not great for the players to feel their characters are fully integrated parts of the Sept community.
    You typed "flush out," but I think you meant "flesh out"? There are workable roles for lower-ranking Garou in a sept, like the Guardians who assist the Warder, and the Keeper of the Land can be a low-ranking sept member who might even have his or her own assistants. If there are idle Cliath and Fostern just hanging out all the time, there's got to be plenty of work the higher-ranking sept members could give them, such as teaching and training cubs, working with the local kinfolk, scouting, foraging and hunting to feed the sept, etc.

    Originally posted by Ana Mizuki View Post
    A huge number of players, STs and writers for the WtA line generally do not like how limiting Rage is towards garou getting a job. A lot of people want their garou having a job to define them further. The concept of a murder hobo is seen as negative, as well. Yet, that's what the garou are. Garou living in communes is seen as bad or wrong by some, to the point that even septs don't have living spaces.
    I, too, would like the source books to flesh out more official "minor" sept roles for lower ranking members, but if the storytellers and players are thoughtful and creative, they can come up with plenty of work to do that doesn't revolve around a 9-5 style workaday job, which to me sounds like a rather humiliating, boring, weaver-trapped life plan for a werewolf. At the same time, I don't see anything wrong with a werewolf freelancing as a local musician, stand-up comic, actor, writer, fine artist, private investigator, etc. I just think any work a werewolf does in human society needs to be be independent self-employment rather than a structured job working for a human manager.
    Last edited by Wilson; 06-25-2018, 09:11 PM.

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    • #32
      Originally posted by Wilson View Post
      You typed "flush out," but I think you meant "flesh out"?
      Yes, typos happen.

      There are workable roles for lower-ranking Garou in a sept,..
      But it's not just lower-Ranks, it's also the demands on time. The only Sept positions that are really starting PC friendly are the Moot specific ones, because you only have to be around for the Moots (and there aren't even five of those, one for each Auspice, so unless you have a small group, people will be left out, but that's kinda my point). Guardians and assistants to the Keeper of the Land are great places for Cliaths and Fosterns to be... but they mean having regular duties at the Sept rather than going off adventuring and questing.

      The problem is that they all still come down to, "NPC gives missions/etc. to the PCs," whether there's an official title or not. It's not helping to make the Sept something the PCs feel part of as a social entity instead of WtA's version of the tavern where you go between dungeon crawls.

      The whole idea of what I was saying, is that if players feel an itch to define their character with a "job" than WtA would benefit with more jobs for starting level characters that integrate into Sept life to replace jobs in society. Having all the stuff you can start play with amounting to "errand runner," and "altar boy" isn't enough defined roles to help make Sept "jobs" scratch the itch in question.

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      • #33
        I mean, to be brutally honest, the issue isn't that there aren't jobs for these garou to do. It is that they aren't -people- jobs, they aren't jobs that pay. Or they aren't jobs that the character can do without being a werewolf.

        There is a sense of "This character is job X, orientation Y AND they are a werewolf" with the characters that have complex human jobs. Rather than "This is characteris tribe Y, Auspice Z and breed Y, they do job Å to earn money". There is nothing wrong with that in practise, but it ends up creating the aformentioned issue.

        Hence why Forsaken's freedom is much more sensible in terms of pleasing variety of players, because some really DO want a character with job X over character who is tribe Y.


        My gallery.

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        • #34
          Originally posted by Ana Mizuki View Post
          Hence why Forsaken's freedom is much more sensible in terms of pleasing variety of players, because some really DO want a character with job X over character who is tribe Y.
          Maybe these players would enjoy playing Ronin?

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          • #35
            Considering how much playing Ronin sucks? Probably not.

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            • #36
              Originally posted by Wilson View Post

              Maybe these players would enjoy playing Ronin?
              Naah, they just want to play the human concept and shoehorn the whole wolf there quickly. The first wolf pic found in google and all that.

              Mind, I'm not saying that it is -wrong-, but I think another game would be more fitting for that.

              Plus, this is why I think of WtA as more of a fantasy game than anything else. The setting asks you to make someone who doesn't have a day job, fights monsters and is a supernatural being from a long line of those. And, they changed in their teens most likely, so they couldn't have been a cop or a marine or anything like that. To some people, that is too fantastical.

              Nevermind once you include lupus or metis, which rarely get included. Though, I know a lot of Deviantart RPs of wolves which are very mature and deep and not too human for WtA Lupus, but diffent RP circles.


              My gallery.

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              • #37
                Originally posted by Ana Mizuki View Post
                Naah, they just want to play the human concept and shoehorn the whole wolf there quickly...
                I wasn't going to say that, but I did think it.

                Originally posted by Ana Mizuki View Post
                Plus, this is why I think of WtA as more of a fantasy game than anything else. The setting asks you to make someone who doesn't have a day job, fights monsters and is a supernatural being from a long line of those. And, they changed in their teens most likely, so they couldn't have been a cop or a marine or anything like that. To some people, that is too fantastical.

                Nevermind once you include lupus or metis, which rarely get included. Though, I know a lot of Deviantart RPs of wolves which are very mature and deep and not too human for WtA Lupus, but diffent RP circles.
                WtA is definitely in the fantasy genre. I'm surprised you say lupus and metis rarely get included, but maybe that's just my table. The original pack had two homids, two lupus, and two metis, but a couple of the players moved away, and one couldn't keep coming, but our two lupus PCs are still at the table. The sept includes two other NPC lupus and two NPC metis. I suppose a sept with 4 lupus and a couple of metis out of less than 20 Garou is uncommon, but it's an "open" bone gnawer caern, and they'll take in anybody.

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                • #38
                  Originally posted by Wilson View Post

                  I like bullets (2), (5), and (8), and the others are interesting but I have some questions.

                  I understand the motive of (1), but how would you implement it? Would you narrow the range of starting dots in Rage and Gnosis, or would you tie the breed and auspice differences to something else, or would you do away with the differences entirely and have all breeds, aupsices, and tribes start with a base 1 dot in Rage, Gnosis, and Willpower?

                  When you say "fewer caerns," do you mean a smaller list of caerns named in the source books, or some kind of limit to the number and rank of caerns a storyteller should create during his or her own world building?

                  Don't you think bullet (4) is a matter of perspective that the "Pure" tribes indulge in, but the other tribes don't buy into? I mean whatever the Wendigo say, the Get of Fenris aren't going to accept being called "Wyrmcomers" by the "Pure Ones."

                  How would you make Pure Breed less physical? Would you have it take effect only in the Umbra?

                  It seems like grouping gifts as you suggest tends to turn them into something more like Abilities. Would you also want to replace the breed-auspice-tribe association with group categories, or would you associate the breeds, auspices, and tribes with these groups? I'm concerned that adding a "group category" to the nature of gifts wouldn't be worth the added complication
                  1) Probably utilize minimum requirements for Freebie spending toward stats for Auspice. (Theurge might require more Gnosis and Willpower, Galliard Willpower and Rage, Ahroun Rage). Tribe and Breed would be more about character than points. With a certain amount of starting points.

                  3) There's a focus on every Garou local has to have a Caern. I think sometimes just having a region to look over is plenty without a giant beacon of power in the middle of it.

                  4) As was stated, there's a lot of writer and developer thinking along the same lines. It started to move away from it later on, but there's still some holding on to the idea that the European Tribes were just worse than all the others. (And then wondered why nobody wanted to play them...)

                  6) A Pure Breed Get is a Warrior, not German. The Pure Breed Silver Fang is a Leader not Russian.. The CoG is a Diplomat, the Shadow Lord is a Tyrant. (Or other facets that the tribal totem pushes for in it's children.)

                  7) Mainly just reworking the orginizational aspect of them, and trimming massive lists to something managible, reducing clutter, and largely redundant Gifts.

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                  • #39
                    I would do more extreme and radical garou. I don't mean to make them total eco-nazi, but just make them more radical in some behaviours:

                    I want to see the Black Furies even more traditionalist in their pride of females and defenders of the wyld.
                    I want to see the Bone Gnawers as fucking city-gangs and guerrilla fighters, true avatars of Rats, raiding the enemy in his own belly.
                    I want to see the Children of Gaia that starts to beat the shit out of people who openly don't give a fuck about Gaia: and bleed for those who wants to save her.
                    I want to see the Fianna as true modern bards and warriors who will never let the morale of the nation to go down. Their songs of glory are needed now.
                    I want to see the Get of Fenris on the fucking warpath, I expect them to be really hardcore on ''might is right'' stuff. I can't imagine them as moderate people, sorry.
                    I want to see the Glass Walkers as true cyber-mafia. This tribe has an enormous arsenal of stereotypes and chances.
                    I want to see the Red Talons as the true last defenders of Gaia, now organized and ready to strike and find balance once again.
                    I want to see the Shadow Lords are true dark knights of the nation, maybe as the alpha tribe somewhere in Europe.
                    I want to see the Silent Striders more involved in the garou nation, maybe with a new storyline for them, maybe they are sieging the middle east to take back their land.
                    I want to see the Silver Fangs on the throne once again; yea , I expect the Kings to take their throne once more, with shiny coats and glorious howls.
                    I want to see the Uktena as darker than ever, maybe with new specific rituals and gifts on controlling and perceive the wyrm itself
                    I want to see the Wendigo finally to take side on something: the situation is a disaster for Gaia, and a warrior tribe like them need to organize again and unleash eternal winter.

                    The situation is desperate, and I'll start to show the Weaver as the new great enemy instead of the Wyrm.
                    The wyrm of course will always big the big bad, but now I would love to see it as even more sneaky and sinister, with the weaver as its main tool.
                    But honestly, with the main topics of WtA, if some stuff from V5 was ''on the edge'', W5 would end up as a disaster.
                    I honestly can't stand people who wish to play Captain Planet instead of Werewolf.
                    Werewolf is, to me, the most mature and extreme game from ww: ecoterrorism, extreme spirituality, old virtues that clash with modernism, enviromentalism, race, breed , amorality and so on.
                    I would love to see a lot of good work on the red talons, focusing on the fact that to be a wolf mean to look for balance in nature, on the fact that they will understand rage and emotions maybe after a bad frenzy or thrall. I really want to see them, as my favorite tribe, more enjoyable for more players. That need more work on the meaning of hate for them: fuck this '' hate=wyrm.''
                    This is just childish. As for every feeling, hate must be feel, understand and putted under control, even more for a tribe o lupus, hate should be not banned just as ''the main wyrmish feeling''. This is seriously childish and stupid. The Red Talons should be worked around their feelings, hironically, human feelings in wolf instincts. That's why they are a really special tribe: they hate as much as they love the Mother, and as much as they feel sorrow for their breed and for Gaia. Red Talons are the tragedy of the garou, if not of the entire planet.

                    Werewolf is an extreme game for extreme mature minds that need an extreme message in order to live extreme experience at the table.
                    Environmentalism starts from small actions, role-play could be one of those actions.
                    The world need a good w5.

                    sorry for my english


                    -'' We are the unsullied.
                    We are the inheritors.
                    We are the Pure ''-

                    I'm the guy who draws werewolves.

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      I don't agree with every statement of Helur, but I like the overall ideas.

                      Personally, I would downplay lupus and metis breed as character options, for they are bringing certain themes to the table that aren't necessarily required for most chronicles.
                      I also would get rid of multiple actions entirely. Rage allowing to ignore wounds, stun, possibly to be spend to get successes after the attack roll. Possibly make Defense and Damage static values, so there is just attack and soak to roll.

                      Streamline certain gifts and re-evaluate their usefulness.

                      Go over the entirety of supplements and comment on what is written there. Making W5 what W20 should have been, a comprehensive source much like V20 was to VtM.

                      Return to "garou are born garou" and not that W20 "garou are indiscernible from kinfolk before the first change" mistake. Make "Scent of the true form" so that some lost cubs might get missed, if checked as a infant and go on as kinfolk (or human), but still allow for garou who have been raised to be garou from toddler age and their Samuel Haight-esque siblings who were never enough.

                      Not incorporate the Garou Nation split of ByNightStudios, but also tone down the global Garou Nation and make local septs and their neighbours the standard game setting. Not to an extend that V5 separated the domains from each other, but in that direction.

                      Provide a WebEnhancment with Legends of the Garou. Supposedly Garou from all over the word met in Pangea to condense their home sept's defining stories down to the tenets of the litany. What are at least some of the stories these tenets derived from?

                      Treat Rage and Gnosis not as absolute pools, but a resource that might be lost, but hasn't to be lost, similar to V5 hunger.

                      Retain the CoD attributes, like in V5.

                      Incorporate Downtime mechanics and downtime actions into the game as a frame work for the ST to encourage one to have gaps between adventures and how to fill them.

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Originally posted by heinrich View Post
                        I also would get rid of multiple actions entirely. Rage allowing to ignore wounds, stun, possibly to be spend to get successes after the attack roll. Possibly make Defense and Damage static values, .
                        It will be like you said 99/100. As they did with celerity and automatic wins on various physical disciplines.
                        The use of rage , I guess, will be something related to a ''rage pool'' like hunger mechanics for v5. Same about combat.
                        According to the werewolf character sheet on v5, the garou are still bad motherfuckers in combat.
                        Frenzy also, I guess it will be a constant true dangerous thing.


                        -'' We are the unsullied.
                        We are the inheritors.
                        We are the Pure ''-

                        I'm the guy who draws werewolves.

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Originally posted by Helur View Post
                          I would do more extreme and radical garou. I don't mean to make them total eco-nazi, but just make them more radical in some behaviours:

                          I want to see the Black Furies even more traditionalist in their pride of females and defenders of the wyld.
                          I want to see the Bone Gnawers as fucking city-gangs and guerrilla fighters, true avatars of Rats, raiding the enemy in his own belly.
                          I want to see the Children of Gaia that starts to beat the shit out of people who openly don't give a fuck about Gaia: and bleed for those who wants to save her.
                          I want to see the Fianna as true modern bards and warriors who will never let the morale of the nation to go down. Their songs of glory are needed now.
                          I want to see the Get of Fenris on the fucking warpath, I expect them to be really hardcore on ''might is right'' stuff. I can't imagine them as moderate people, sorry.
                          I want to see the Glass Walkers as true cyber-mafia. This tribe has an enormous arsenal of stereotypes and chances.
                          I want to see the Red Talons as the true last defenders of Gaia, now organized and ready to strike and find balance once again.
                          I want to see the Shadow Lords are true dark knights of the nation, maybe as the alpha tribe somewhere in Europe.
                          I want to see the Silent Striders more involved in the garou nation, maybe with a new storyline for them, maybe they are sieging the middle east to take back their land.
                          I want to see the Silver Fangs on the throne once again; yea , I expect the Kings to take their throne once more, with shiny coats and glorious howls.
                          I want to see the Uktena as darker than ever, maybe with new specific rituals and gifts on controlling and perceive the wyrm itself
                          I want to see the Wendigo finally to take side on something: the situation is a disaster for Gaia, and a warrior tribe like them need to organize again and unleash eternal winter.

                          The situation is desperate, and I'll start to show the Weaver as the new great enemy instead of the Wyrm.
                          The wyrm of course will always big the big bad, but now I would love to see it as even more sneaky and sinister, with the weaver as its main tool.
                          But honestly, with the main topics of WtA, if some stuff from V5 was ''on the edge'', W5 would end up as a disaster.
                          I honestly can't stand people who wish to play Captain Planet instead of Werewolf.
                          Werewolf is, to me, the most mature and extreme game from ww: ecoterrorism, extreme spirituality, old virtues that clash with modernism, enviromentalism, race, breed , amorality and so on.
                          I would love to see a lot of good work on the red talons, focusing on the fact that to be a wolf mean to look for balance in nature, on the fact that they will understand rage and emotions maybe after a bad frenzy or thrall. I really want to see them, as my favorite tribe, more enjoyable for more players. That need more work on the meaning of hate for them: fuck this '' hate=wyrm.''
                          This is just childish. As for every feeling, hate must be feel, understand and putted under control, even more for a tribe o lupus, hate should be not banned just as ''the main wyrmish feeling''. This is seriously childish and stupid. The Red Talons should be worked around their feelings, hironically, human feelings in wolf instincts. That's why they are a really special tribe: they hate as much as they love the Mother, and as much as they feel sorrow for their breed and for Gaia. Red Talons are the tragedy of the garou, if not of the entire planet.

                          Werewolf is an extreme game for extreme mature minds that need an extreme message in order to live extreme experience at the table.
                          Environmentalism starts from small actions, role-play could be one of those actions.
                          The world need a good w5.

                          sorry for my english
                          I think I must be your clone cause it'e exactly what I would do.

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Rage as a Trait that begins fix for each auspice and goes sky high with role playing, but cannot be bought with experience points. So an Ahroun begins the game with Rage 5 and it can never go below 5, the level 5 Rage gives him greater strength than a philodox with Rage 3 but he is also closer to Frenzy.

                            Gnosis is a trait also that cannot be bought with experience points, it can be harvested though with role playing to a maximum of 10.

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              I mean If I were to do W5 I would have it the apocalypse already started, and you have the option to advance it full gear or keep it at that early stage like the rest of the gameline had it.

                              But I would more carefully integrate the Fera, and the Hengeyokai into the the core. And have a consistent editor keeping things consistent with the level of how endangered the populations are. Emphasize you can still shepard the souls of the city and its people, but also include that fun Hunting down Cyborgs and Zombies as a side thing not even specifically from the Wyrm. And I would bunker down and prepare for it to be a crapstorm like V5 was because this isn't the 90's anymore and people are going to have very different expectations.

                              I feel the Garou Tribes are supposed to have bigots and different cultural norms, and not just be all heroes. The players pack can pushing for reform, but Don't Expect even the Black Furies to have so much in common with the Children of Gaia.

                              emphasize the Garou are about sacrifice and responsibilities rather then personal freedom.

                              Maybe have a Garou Nation Civil War be the big thing that the Apocalypse hinges on. Older versions the Tribes were more cold warring maybe now at the apocalypse have them Civil War it out to determine the road they take. Like the 2nd Impergium could be the cornerstone of the Civil War and it can splash out into a Fera Wide World War.

                              And for gods sake give me something more to the Children of Gaia then they are hippy dippy never wrongs, and subtly treated like the white middle class for some reason... Please give them culture like tie them into their Sumerian Roots. Give them conflict, because honestly how they were written it didn't sound like they really made mistakes. Their mistakes came off as they weren't proactive enough helping everyone elses problems. Bone Gnawers and Glass Walkers have a solid Culture even if they are on different continents. Children of Gaia seemed hollow...

                              Red Talons are supposed to be intractable monsters, and Wendigo are supposed to have a lot right and a lot wrong.

                              And be consistent with the Stargazers. If their is two hundred of you then stop with all the faction talk, this reminds me of the sidereals, most joined the Beast Courts, but a handful didn't, but then they ignored that going forward.

                              I loved the Crunch and a lot of the new stuff in W20 but it suffered a lot from Exalted 2nd edition-itis, where they concentrated so much on abbreviating and keeping everything from the old editions it felt like they shrank the world. Before in Revised I felt like anything was possible and there were mysteries. But W20 sacrificed the air of mystery just so they made you know we are covering it all guys. Like seriously Book of the Wyrm and Umbra for w20 made Malfeas seem tiny and claustraphobic and for to regimented and codified. The best parts of the 1st three editions were they weren't afraid to break the mold and didn't worry about covering everything. Like Malfeas isn't just okay Elemental Maeljin, specific number of the Emotional Maeljin, Number Two and a handful of Totems. In the old days it was mysterious, the lines got blurred about some Maeljin being Umbral Spirits or Neverborn and Onceborn, as they easter egged some of the Neverborn as existing in Malfeas, that type of stuff is fun and Brilliant. We have an ambiguous number of Totem level Maeljin, and we have things like Ifrit and Shaytan that are aspected to Balefire, and roads to Nightmare, and there is no clear destinction between Malfeas and Yomi, like they should be overlapping like crazy.

                              But no it felt like they were too concerned with explaining and porting things over. It should be more like 3rd ed where they get back to the spirit of things and invent and blur the lines and don't constrain themselves with the little rule.

                              Also look at the damn errata, jeesh even Revised had Errata saying the Spirit rules were wonky and it makes no sense for Scrags to have Rage 10 because that is no longer Foot Soldier traits that is tank traits.

                              Nexus Crawlers are supposed to be anomalies but the books just used them as a place holder for top level just under Incarnae monsters.

                              And don't be afraid to go crazy with the power level and odds. In Prehistoric Days Garou hunted Walking Mountains, don't keep on giving us these sidebars talking about toning it down or just treat things as diceless after a certain level. I mean you can still have godlike opponents and use dice... like Koschei should have been the example for that, but instead they have him just go diceless at a certain point of his power returning and ughhh nothing kills the imagination like stating you can't touch these guys they are beyond you... when they are still under the powerlevel of Incarnae and Celestines.

                              Sorry very ranty...


                              It is a time for great deeds!

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                              • #45
                                Some friends and I are play-testing a mashup of V5 and W20 that is so far really entertaining.

                                System changes
                                ------------------------
                                * Using the V5 attributes and skills. Appearance is naff as an attribute, and having the Power, Finesse, Resistance is clever.
                                * Breeds give a starting skill dot (chose 1 of 3), rather than your starting Gnosis. Auspice gives a starting skill dot too (choose 1 of 3), but also gives you your Frenzy-type for botched Rage rolls (see below). Tribe also gives you a starting skill dot (choose 1 of 3).
                                * Primal Urge goes poof. Rage is close enough.
                                * Use the V5 beast mechanic for Rage (Drawing on your Rage). Makes using Rage a gamble.
                                - Caveat: when doing things with your Pack, reduce your rage die on the rolls by 1 (min 1). Makes the pack more important, and lone wolves more unpredictable and dangerous
                                * You start with 1 rage, regardless of auspice.You can use rage for most of the things you can in W20. Healing aggravated always increases your Rage, by as much as you want to heal point for point.
                                * Like V5, higher ranks let you deal with rage better. Like W20 we've still got the 3 renown pools. We're still not sure if we like them bought with XP like Forsaken, or earned separately to XP.
                                * Hit 5 rage? Welcome to crinos form, locked, until you can calm the heck down. If you somehow get 0 rage (spirit attack for example) you lose the wolf and are human. This could be useful. But mostly it just hurts. Be really careful when you see the next full moon.
                                * Gnosis is renamed Connection to stop messing with Mage players (even if we had it first). Like Willpower it's based on stat+stat (Strength + Manipulation, convince those spirits through violence or guile)
                                * Connection works like the health track, with Aggravated or Superficial damage, requiring different ways to regain your connection to Gaia. Otherwise works like gnosis.
                                * Most gifts are easily translated with Drawing on Rage rolls instead of spending Rage; injuries to Connection instead of spending Gnosis, and difficulties ratcheted down to hit the V5 target success count vs. the target roll numbers.

                                World changes
                                ---------------------
                                The final battle occurred as per the Last Battle novel. Albrecht, all the other named characters, they're all dead. Wiped out to defeat the Wyrm and, thanks to Antoine, they did. Yay! But why are Garou still born, and why is the world still here?

                                Because you don't win a war with one final, symbolic battle, you furry meatheads.

                                Wyrm was redeemed, but Corruption remains. Corruption: created by the Wyld, used by the Weaver to entrap the Wyrm. It's out there and it's still going. We're past all the prophesies here, so the fractured Garou world has to rebuild without a target. The Garou Nation is basically toast, very few garou over rank 2 remained. But the Garou are still the world's defenders, and there's no less trouble than before.

                                The Umbra suffered from Anthelios and the final battle. Realms fractured and reformed with bits of each other (e.g Atrocity and Wolfhome have a new combined realm. Eep). Many caern-stones were shattered, meaning many caerns have a fate that's unknown. Spirits are in awe of what the Garou did, but they're wary. Totems still provide patronage but.. don't talk as much. It's up to the new Garou to restore their ways. Or change them.

                                Tribes are looking after themselves as they've all lost their star players. Everyone's hurting; some are accepting help, some are offering help, some are striking out at everything nearby. Joy of joys.

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