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  • erSito
    started a topic Extra actions compared to V20DA celerity.

    Extra actions compared to V20DA celerity.


    I just realize in Vampire 20 anniversary Dark Ages celerity does not longer provide 1 additional action per level of celerity. Instead, it removes some penalties and limitations from the multiple actions standard rules (those have also changed from the “divide dice pool” old rule).

    To be honest, I like those new rules quite a lot: it does make celerity a good discipline, but not the best by far...; and it does not make combats boring for PCs without celerity.

    However, how does it translate to W20? I’m not sure Rage need to be changed to match celerity, because all werewolves have it, and the “boring” factor is less significant in those games. However, using the same rules for multiple actions seems coherent to me.

    Opinions?


  • grimjaws
    replied
    I see now that the Grondr do as well, that would better explain some of the survivability of the Gurahl during the War of Rage.

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  • Saur Ops Specialist
    replied
    Originally posted by grimjaws View Post
    Would these changes only apply to Garou? If so, it makes the idea of the War of Rage being a very long conflict more believeable, as packs of wolves wouldn't wipe out other Changing Breeds in minutes in a combat encounter. I really like the idea of a Gurahl being able to hold their own at least for a couple of rounds before being overwhelmed, or even standing a chance, even though slim, of beating off a pack.

    Ratkin and Mokole use the same type of Rage as Garou, though. The former are hitting with massive attack dice pools, while the latter, could annihilate vast swaths of anything with super-fast Archid attacks. That seems like a hurdle high enough.

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  • Illithid
    replied
    I personally think that the main reason that the Garou came out on top was because of Packs, most other Fera don't operate in groups. Wolves also tend to breed faster than everything but the Rats

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  • heinrich
    replied
    Originally posted by erSito View Post
    On a separated topic, flavor wise, werewolves HAVE to be a way stronger in combat. They won the war of Rage against all other changing breeds. Surely they didn't fight them all at once and the other breeds had their own coordination problems, but still...
    But did they win on basis of combat prowess or were there other factors?
    It all depends on how you think the war was fought, I guess...

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  • erSito
    replied
    Originally posted by Illithid View Post
    If you want an even simpler option - Use standard V20 DA Multiple actions rules (including only 1 attack) but let them turn any other action into another attack for a rage point. That attack has the current penalties for multiple actions still.

    It'll limit your characters to 2 extra attacks in most cases, regardless of rage, as the attacks occur at +1/+2/+3 difficulty, then you can't attack at dif 10. But combat manoeuvres that are easier than 6 could let them take more.
    It'd be a bit more tactical for the pack.
    I kinda like this idea!


    On a separated topic, flavor wise, werewolves HAVE to be a way stronger in combat. They won the war of Rage against all other changing breeds. Surely they didn't fight them all at once and the other breeds had their own coordination problems, but still...



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  • Illithid
    replied
    I know that you're talking about Werewolf players but the maths isn't difficult, and they'd just have a pretty constant rage level and effects to remember.

    Believe me, not making everyone declare in reverse order then act will drop a lot of the bloat with a normal combat.

    If you want an even simpler option - Use standard V20 DA Multiple actions rules (including only 1 attack) but let them turn any other action into another attack for a rage point. That attack has the current penalties for multiple actions still.

    It'll limit your characters to 2 extra attacks in most cases, regardless of rage, as the attacks occur at +1/+2/+3 difficulty, then you can't attack at dif 10. But combat manoeuvres that are easier than 6 could let them take more.
    It'd be a bit more tactical for the pack.
    Last edited by Illithid; 06-20-2018, 10:54 PM.

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  • heinrich
    replied
    I thought of something like that, but found it too convoluted.

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  • Illithid
    replied
    Additional actions are a difficult thing to manage in any system, even in D&D, the classes with extra attacks dominate combat.

    I really like the Dark ages Vampire system for extra actions and how celerity affects it; it a good balance between useful but not completely over the top.
    One of the things that I like the best, is that there's not the declaring actions aspect of other White Wolf games, you just have to decide before the first roll if you will "Split" in general or not. Also, you only get multiple attacks with Celerity, or a hail of arrows, but taking multiple defences is more feasible.

    If you use those rules as a base line (V20 Dark Ages p 322) for multiple actions. Simply - each action incurs an additional -1 dice and +1 difficulty on top of the last (Including the first) (And actions can't be taken if the roll is at difficulty 10 or above)

    I personally don't think that Rage giving a passive bonus without spending rage it is as thematic to werewolf as it is for Celerity in Vampires.
    I would suggest something like - Spend a rage to ignore up to (1/2 Rage) in penalties for multiple actions for the turn (round up for dice penalty and down for difficulty)
    - Spend an Additional Rage per extra action that you wish to be an attack (Normally you can only make 1 attack action per round) that takes what ever penalties may apply to that action.
    Rage vs Penalty Ignored
    Rage Dice Dif
    1 1 0
    2 1 1
    3 2 1
    4 2 2
    5 3 2
    6 3 3
    7 4 3
    8 4 4
    9 5 4
    10 5 5

    Actions are normally at the following penalties

    Only 1 action - No penalty at all

    More than 1 action, or First action and ready to take more
    -1 Dice +1 Difficulty / -2 Dice +2 Difficulty / -3 Dice +3 Difficulty / -4 Dice +4 Difficulty

    One of these actions is allowed to be an attack.

    Rage 1, spend one rage
    -0 Dice +0 Difficulty / -1 Dice +1 Difficulty / -2 Dice +2 Difficulty / -3 Dice +3 Difficulty / -4 Dice +4 Difficulty
    ​One of these actions is allowed to be an attack.
    If they have a second rage to spend (Temp above permanent) they can make a second action into an attack at that action's penalty


    Rage 5, spend one rage
    -0 Dice +0 Difficulty / -0 Dice +0 Difficulty / -0 Dice +1 Difficulty / -1 Dice +2 Difficulty / -2 Dice +3 Difficulty / -3 Dice +4 Difficulty
    ​One of these actions is allowed to be an attack.
    For each additional rage they spend, an extra one of those actions can be an attack

    If you spend all 5 Rage
    You could, at best attack 5 times, at the following penalties
    -0 Dice +0 Difficulty / -0 Dice +0 Difficulty / -0 Dice +1 Difficulty / -1 Dice +2 Difficulty / -2 Dice +3 Difficulty

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  • heinrich
    replied
    I guess I'd use it for any Changing Breed that normally is allowed multiple actions with Rage.
    Wouldn't use it for Gurahl, but allow them to get Bonuses to Strength and Stamina for their permanent Rage in rounds. Basically like W20 Changing Breed allows.

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  • grimjaws
    replied
    Originally posted by heinrich View Post
    Snip very interesting house rules.
    Would these changes only apply to Garou? If so, it makes the idea of the War of Rage being a very long conflict more believeable, as packs of wolves wouldn't wipe out other Changing Breeds in minutes in a combat encounter. I really like the idea of a Gurahl being able to hold their own at least for a couple of rounds before being overwhelmed, or even standing a chance, even though slim, of beating off a pack.

    Leave a comment:


  • heinrich
    replied
    Additional actions are broken.
    For one dot in Rage spend, you may use your total attack dice pool a second time, and if you hit, use your complete damage dice pool again.
    A gurahl can't even hope to match that might, even with W20 changing breeds new rules about spending rage for gurahl.

    And any other foe is equally screwed, like Fomori, spirits/banes, hunter etc.

    With, some newer W20 book, there is a special gift that allows to use Rage actions to move, not only attack. Meaning that normally that wouldn't be allowed. Kind of moves the whole abstract combat system a bit towards d20-esque battle map situations, for now it is important for your rage actions if an enemy is in reach...


    Also, W20 authors heard that "Razor Claws", with a +1 damage die for a scene is a bad trade off for one Rage, that allows for an additional full dicepool attack. So, they did the reasonable thing, and granted the gift more damage dice and a reduction in difficulty - totally unbalanced with all higher ranked pre-W20 claw enhancing gift.


    So, I'd change the system radically.
    And VDA20 Celerity is a good point to start.

    My take:
    Multiple actions
    Declare all actions you want to take until the beginning of your next turn, including all dodge, block or parry actions you might want to take if necessary. Each action causes the difficulty for all actions to be increased by one, to a maximum of +3 for three actions and all actions suffer a -1 die dicepool penalty per action, to a maximum of -3 dice. The order of the actions is irrelevant for the penalties. From an in-game viewpoint the actions may occur simultaneously or in the player's order of choice. If one action requires a previous action to succeed to be of use or possible, the player doesn't have to take that action, but it has to be factored in before in any case. Actions that normally don't have rolls like certain non-permanent gifts are also factored in, increasing the difficulty for all other actions and reduce these dice pools. Those actions gain a dicepool decided by the ST for purpose of multiple actions, with the default being Wits. Any reflexive rolls required during the turn are not subject to this limitation.
    If an attack during a turn with multiple actions scores damage, the damage dicepool is subject to the same dicepool penalty as the attack was, but not the difficulty increase.

    Rage
    Each uneven dot in Rage increases the attack dicepool of any brawl or melee attack of the garou. Each even dot in Rage increases the dice pool of each parry, block or dodge action the garou takes. Each dot of Rage increases initiative. These bonuses are usually permanent, based on the permanent Rating of Rage. However, they are lost, if the Character 'looses the Wolf'. If a player spends a Rage point, the character my remove dice pool penalties and difficulty increases due to multiple action rules from any brawl or melee attack or parry, block oder dodge action. This point can be spend, when the roll is due, so it doesn't have to be declared at the start of the turn. However, the Player must be allowed to spend Rage at that point, meaning he hasn't used Gnosis in the given turn and has not already spend the maximum of allowed Rage per round.


    With this Rage would be a moderate one to three dice bonus on every attack or parry roll. It would still allow for multiple attacks/dodges but the impact will be toned down. So the difference between killing machine with multiple actions in the first two turns of combat to the no-rage fighter like every body else will be not that big.

    It totally depends of the mode of playing and the style of the fight, but lately, I have new troups and I feel if you don't used all your actions in the first turn, you won't survive and can't keep up with your pack.
    Last edited by heinrich; 06-19-2018, 11:25 AM.

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