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Kinfolk - Clear Consensus on what that means?

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  • #16
    Originally posted by heinrich View Post
    Iirc, it states pre-change garou aren't detected anymore. This is a huge change, for it shakes up the whole kin/garou dynamic.
    Actually I remember that in Revised it always was that kinfolks could not be discovered before birth and with the W20 edition I had this "garou and kinfolks are detected automatically". It changed my whole campaign when the W20 put out the Scent of the True form with "you can detect kins and garou automatically", I can also remember people on this forum pointing out that it was how you detected who was going to be a garou.

    Also, could a pre-change garou and a gaou now mate and not produce a metis?
    Yes, that was clarified on some supplement I can't remember. Pre-change garou are still garou, if they mate they produce a metis and if they're embraced they die (or become an abomination); they should be considered Gnosis 1 for whatever may require such a stat (not that they can use their gnosis at that point, anyway).

    I guess any Mage could use Prime to check for a sympatic connection that makes a person kin.
    Hrrm, prime should not work that way, it's the detection and manipulation of Quintessence. Maybe you could say that a Garou has an higher native Quintessence (gnosis) in his pattern and therefore pops up as "more spiritual" than a common human? It should still be such an inert Gnosis that I'd definitely ask for at least three successes. Spirit should work basically in the same way.

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    • #17
      In 2nd ed (?) There was a spirit rite, talon or fetish that watched over a kinfolk to warn you if they went through the first change so you could find them. That would have no need if you could use a common-as-dirt gift to sense them from birth.

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      • #18
        Originally posted by Maris Streck View Post
        Actually I remember that in Revised it always was that kinfolks could not be discovered before birth and with the W20 edition I had this "garou and kinfolks are detected automatically". It changed my whole campaign when the W20 put out the Scent of the True form with "you can detect kins and garou automatically", I can also remember people on this forum pointing out that it was how you detected who was going to be a garou.
        W20 page 166 is pretty clear:
        The Garou can smell Kinfolk or a fellow werewolf automatically; pre-Change werewolves smell like Kin.
        2nd Edition and revised only allowed for Garou to be determined by scent without a roll. In addition, the FAQ section of the Storyteller handbook stated, that pre-change Garou are considered garou, not kinfolk. Therefore the gift would tell garou and kin apart even before the first change. With W20 that is not the case anymore.


        Originally posted by Maris Streck View Post
        Yes, that was clarified on some supplement I can't remember. Pre-change garou are still garou, if they mate they produce a metis and if they're embraced they die (or become an abomination); they should be considered Gnosis 1 for whatever may require such a stat (not that they can use their gnosis at that point, anyway).
        Also Storyteller's Hanbook revised, FAQ section, iirc. Therefore the validity of this answer might not be given in W20, for it is unclear if just the gift "Scent of the true form" became weaker (not being able to tell Garou and kin appart anymore), or if really the setting was changed to "each and every kinfolk has the inherent possibility to have a first change. Garou aren't born garou, they are born kin".

        There are some passages in W20 that strongly suggest the authors of W20 wanted to lean into the latter interpretation, and BNS's Werewolf clearly does go into this direction aswell.

        Originally posted by Maris Streck View Post
        Hrrm, prime should not work that way, it's the detection and manipulation of Quintessence. Maybe you could say that a Garou has an higher native Quintessence (gnosis) in his pattern and therefore pops up as "more spiritual" than a common human? It should still be such an inert Gnosis that I'd definitely ask for at least three successes. Spirit should work basically in the same way.
        It is said in the Pattern Article of White Wolf Wika that "Each Pattern contains a spark of Prime, the original Quintessence that animates the whole Pattern". So my reasoning being, that Prime should be able to tell apart a Kinfolk from a human. Sure, it would require several successes, I guess, for the difference is marginal.

        Originally posted by Illithid View Post
        In 2nd ed (?) There was a spirit rite, talon or fetish that watched over a kinfolk to warn you if they went through the first change so you could find them. That would have no need if you could use a common-as-dirt gift to sense them from birth.
        There still is: a Rite called "Baptism of Fire". It binds a special servant of the tribal totem, a kin-fetch to a baby garou (or any other age of a pre-change garou, really) watching over them and alerting others of her tribe if the first-change comes closer. The Rite explicitly states it is only for garou babies and that "Scent of the true form" will allow ti discriminate garou from kin. It even states so in W20, because the Rite was copy&pasted from revised. Therefore further strengthening my statement taht W20 authors changed aspects of the setting on a whim, carelessly.

        EDIT: The Rite is also a means for a tribe to claim a baby garou as one of their own - so while the full membership into a tribe comes with passing the Rite of Passage, tribes still lay claim to their tribe's offspring and care for them, meaning they will come if a kin-fetch alerts them and ease the cub into garou society and educate him in tribal ways to bring him into the tribe.
        Last edited by heinrich; 01-26-2019, 05:11 AM.

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        • #19
          Originally posted by heinrich View Post
          W20 page 166 is pretty clear:
          When I started my campaign the manual still lacked that line; no one ever said that a new version was out or posted errata, I only discovered a few months ago that it was fixed. By now my campaign has been going for three years and my players already knew which one of their children was meant to become Garou and RP'd accorgingly.

          So yeah, now it's fixed but it wasn't when my campaign begun.

          It is said in the Pattern Article of White Wolf Wika that "Each Pattern contains a spark of Prime, the original Quintessence that animates the whole Pattern". So my reasoning being, that Prime should be able to tell apart a Kinfolk from a human. Sure, it would require several successes, I guess, for the difference is marginal.
          This is quite a stretch... Everything, be it living or unliving, has some Quintessence embedded in its pattern - it's literally the definition of existence. In fact, sacrifices release Quintessence and creation requires Quintessence. But this is different from saying that you can tell apart a human from a kinfolk or an unchanged Garou; the Primal energy stored in a human pattern is 10 and they're all three probably going to have that amount in them.
          A Garou that never had his first change should not have a Gnosis reservoir and be therefore unable to store more Quintessence than his pattern allows; after his change the awakened spiritual nature lets him exceed the normal human limitations, no more and no less than what happens to an Awakened mage.

          I'd say that Spirit is more appropriate than Prime to detect kins or garou.

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          • #20
            Originally posted by Maris Streck View Post
            When I started my campaign the manual still lacked that line; no one ever said that a new version was out or posted errata, I only discovered a few months ago that it was fixed. By now my campaign has been going for three years and my players already knew which one of their children was meant to become Garou and RP'd accorgingly.

            So yeah, now it's fixed but it wasn't when my campaign begun.
            Well, fixed, is a hard word. There is a statement. That is different from revised and leaves many questions open, at least for me. Especially, since it is contradicted just a few pages later in the Baptism of Fire-Write-up, that still references the revised era version of the Gift.

            Originally posted by Maris Streck View Post
            This is quite a stretch... Everything, be it living or unliving, has some Quintessence embedded in its pattern - it's literally the definition of existence. In fact, sacrifices release Quintessence and creation requires Quintessence. But this is different from saying that you can tell apart a human from a kinfolk or an unchanged Garou; the Primal energy stored in a human pattern is 10 and they're all three probably going to have that amount in them.
            A Garou that never had his first change should not have a Gnosis reservoir and be therefore unable to store more Quintessence than his pattern allows; after his change the awakened spiritual nature lets him exceed the normal human limitations, no more and no less than what happens to an Awakened mage.

            I'd say that Spirit is more appropriate than Prime to detect kins or garou.
            While it is said, that garou are half-spirit and therefore should have a spirit-pattern along with their life-pattern kinfolk might not have (unless they have the Gnosis merit, were bestowed a Gift or some similar spirit related event happened). But the Resonance or quality of the Quintessence that makes up their life pattern might have subtle clues towards their kinfolk quality. When Tass, Dross, Gnosis, Quintessence, Mana, Glamour and Vitae and possibly Pathos are all different versions of Quintessence, that a Mage might differentiate, when he has the proper understanding, then the fine nuances of the quintessence that makes up a person might also be something that can be discerned.

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            • #21
              Originally posted by heinrich View Post
              While it is said, that garou are half-spirit and therefore should have a spirit-pattern along with their life-pattern kinfolk might not have (unless they have the Gnosis merit, were bestowed a Gift or some similar spirit related event happened). But the Resonance or quality of the Quintessence that makes up their life pattern might have subtle clues towards their kinfolk quality. When Tass, Dross, Gnosis, Quintessence, Mana, Glamour and Vitae and possibly Pathos are all different versions of Quintessence, that a Mage might differentiate, when he has the proper understanding, then the fine nuances of the quintessence that makes up a person might also be something that can be discerned.
              It still feels a theoretically thinner sensation than a peek with Spirit 1. Quintessence inside a human pattern is probably have some trait like Dynamic (living) or Entropic (aging) that will probably show up before any trace of inert shifter blood; but even if they do, some extra Dynamic subtype of resonance could depend by environmental factors and hardly a definitive proof.

              Of course we're both in full speculation right now but let's say that should a player of mine ask for a roll like that I'd give him the one related to Garou only after 4-6 successes, in an unclear wording (it might be Dynamic - changing but not Dynamic- werewolf) and bury it below at least other five Resonance traits. This is how hard it feels for me to find that info with Prime.

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              • #22
                Originally posted by Maris Streck View Post
                It still feels a theoretically thinner sensation than a peek with Spirit 1. Quintessence inside a human pattern is probably have some trait like Dynamic (living) or Entropic (aging) that will probably show up before any trace of inert shifter blood; but even if they do, some extra Dynamic subtype of resonance could depend by environmental factors and hardly a definitive proof.

                Of course we're both in full speculation right now but let's say that should a player of mine ask for a roll like that I'd give him the one related to Garou only after 4-6 successes, in an unclear wording (it might be Dynamic - changing but not Dynamic- werewolf) and bury it below at least other five Resonance traits. This is how hard it feels for me to find that info with Prime.
                Fair enough.

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