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  • mrobviousjosh
    started a topic Kinfolk - Clear Consensus on what that means?

    Kinfolk - Clear Consensus on what that means?

    I'm trying to figure out specifically what defines a kinfolk and, as a natural follow up, how to detect/find them (also, are they innately supernatural or only if they have gifts/gnosis).

    Part of the confusion comes from the source book Kinfolk Unsung Heroes (Werewolf The Apocalypse Year of the Ally)

    On page 13 of the aforementioned book (quoting in part), "So what makes somebody kin?

    The most important deciding factor in whether someone is kin or not is her response to the Delirium? . . . A bona fide Kinfolk might be afraid, but no Veil shadows her memory of witnessing werewolves in their true form. . . .

    The second vital component in determining whether a wolf or human is Kin involves genetics. Is he descended from a line of werewolves? Do other members of his pack bear Gaia's favor? Has he sired Garou pups? If so, he's almost assuredly Kinfolk. Genetics isn't an exact science, but the mating of werewolves and Kinfolk produces roughly 90 percent Kinfolk and 10 percent Garou offspring. The mating of two Kinfolk changes the number to 50 percent Kinfolk and 1 percent Garou, with the remainder of children being plain folks. . . .

    The more nebulous determinants of Kinfolk status are mindset, spirtuality and acculturation. (this is all the duty/lore stuff relating to Gaia)

    SO, even after all that, there's not a definitive answer. Even the supernatural ones with gnosis/gifts don't seem to register differently under Auspex per a strict reading of the Vampire Rules. I also haven't found a Werewolf Gift or Rite to determine it. Blood Magic, particularly BioThaumaturgy, has led to some possible ways to determine it with blood but even that isn't expressly stated in the rules....

    Can anyone help? Thanks.

  • heinrich
    replied
    Originally posted by Maris Streck View Post
    It still feels a theoretically thinner sensation than a peek with Spirit 1. Quintessence inside a human pattern is probably have some trait like Dynamic (living) or Entropic (aging) that will probably show up before any trace of inert shifter blood; but even if they do, some extra Dynamic subtype of resonance could depend by environmental factors and hardly a definitive proof.

    Of course we're both in full speculation right now but let's say that should a player of mine ask for a roll like that I'd give him the one related to Garou only after 4-6 successes, in an unclear wording (it might be Dynamic - changing but not Dynamic- werewolf) and bury it below at least other five Resonance traits. This is how hard it feels for me to find that info with Prime.
    Fair enough.

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  • Maris Streck
    replied
    Originally posted by heinrich View Post
    While it is said, that garou are half-spirit and therefore should have a spirit-pattern along with their life-pattern kinfolk might not have (unless they have the Gnosis merit, were bestowed a Gift or some similar spirit related event happened). But the Resonance or quality of the Quintessence that makes up their life pattern might have subtle clues towards their kinfolk quality. When Tass, Dross, Gnosis, Quintessence, Mana, Glamour and Vitae and possibly Pathos are all different versions of Quintessence, that a Mage might differentiate, when he has the proper understanding, then the fine nuances of the quintessence that makes up a person might also be something that can be discerned.
    It still feels a theoretically thinner sensation than a peek with Spirit 1. Quintessence inside a human pattern is probably have some trait like Dynamic (living) or Entropic (aging) that will probably show up before any trace of inert shifter blood; but even if they do, some extra Dynamic subtype of resonance could depend by environmental factors and hardly a definitive proof.

    Of course we're both in full speculation right now but let's say that should a player of mine ask for a roll like that I'd give him the one related to Garou only after 4-6 successes, in an unclear wording (it might be Dynamic - changing but not Dynamic- werewolf) and bury it below at least other five Resonance traits. This is how hard it feels for me to find that info with Prime.

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  • heinrich
    replied
    Originally posted by Maris Streck View Post
    When I started my campaign the manual still lacked that line; no one ever said that a new version was out or posted errata, I only discovered a few months ago that it was fixed. By now my campaign has been going for three years and my players already knew which one of their children was meant to become Garou and RP'd accorgingly.

    So yeah, now it's fixed but it wasn't when my campaign begun.
    Well, fixed, is a hard word. There is a statement. That is different from revised and leaves many questions open, at least for me. Especially, since it is contradicted just a few pages later in the Baptism of Fire-Write-up, that still references the revised era version of the Gift.

    Originally posted by Maris Streck View Post
    This is quite a stretch... Everything, be it living or unliving, has some Quintessence embedded in its pattern - it's literally the definition of existence. In fact, sacrifices release Quintessence and creation requires Quintessence. But this is different from saying that you can tell apart a human from a kinfolk or an unchanged Garou; the Primal energy stored in a human pattern is 10 and they're all three probably going to have that amount in them.
    A Garou that never had his first change should not have a Gnosis reservoir and be therefore unable to store more Quintessence than his pattern allows; after his change the awakened spiritual nature lets him exceed the normal human limitations, no more and no less than what happens to an Awakened mage.

    I'd say that Spirit is more appropriate than Prime to detect kins or garou.
    While it is said, that garou are half-spirit and therefore should have a spirit-pattern along with their life-pattern kinfolk might not have (unless they have the Gnosis merit, were bestowed a Gift or some similar spirit related event happened). But the Resonance or quality of the Quintessence that makes up their life pattern might have subtle clues towards their kinfolk quality. When Tass, Dross, Gnosis, Quintessence, Mana, Glamour and Vitae and possibly Pathos are all different versions of Quintessence, that a Mage might differentiate, when he has the proper understanding, then the fine nuances of the quintessence that makes up a person might also be something that can be discerned.

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  • Maris Streck
    replied
    Originally posted by heinrich View Post
    W20 page 166 is pretty clear:
    When I started my campaign the manual still lacked that line; no one ever said that a new version was out or posted errata, I only discovered a few months ago that it was fixed. By now my campaign has been going for three years and my players already knew which one of their children was meant to become Garou and RP'd accorgingly.

    So yeah, now it's fixed but it wasn't when my campaign begun.

    It is said in the Pattern Article of White Wolf Wika that "Each Pattern contains a spark of Prime, the original Quintessence that animates the whole Pattern". So my reasoning being, that Prime should be able to tell apart a Kinfolk from a human. Sure, it would require several successes, I guess, for the difference is marginal.
    This is quite a stretch... Everything, be it living or unliving, has some Quintessence embedded in its pattern - it's literally the definition of existence. In fact, sacrifices release Quintessence and creation requires Quintessence. But this is different from saying that you can tell apart a human from a kinfolk or an unchanged Garou; the Primal energy stored in a human pattern is 10 and they're all three probably going to have that amount in them.
    A Garou that never had his first change should not have a Gnosis reservoir and be therefore unable to store more Quintessence than his pattern allows; after his change the awakened spiritual nature lets him exceed the normal human limitations, no more and no less than what happens to an Awakened mage.

    I'd say that Spirit is more appropriate than Prime to detect kins or garou.

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  • heinrich
    replied
    Originally posted by Maris Streck View Post
    Actually I remember that in Revised it always was that kinfolks could not be discovered before birth and with the W20 edition I had this "garou and kinfolks are detected automatically". It changed my whole campaign when the W20 put out the Scent of the True form with "you can detect kins and garou automatically", I can also remember people on this forum pointing out that it was how you detected who was going to be a garou.
    W20 page 166 is pretty clear:
    The Garou can smell Kinfolk or a fellow werewolf automatically; pre-Change werewolves smell like Kin.
    2nd Edition and revised only allowed for Garou to be determined by scent without a roll. In addition, the FAQ section of the Storyteller handbook stated, that pre-change Garou are considered garou, not kinfolk. Therefore the gift would tell garou and kin apart even before the first change. With W20 that is not the case anymore.


    Originally posted by Maris Streck View Post
    Yes, that was clarified on some supplement I can't remember. Pre-change garou are still garou, if they mate they produce a metis and if they're embraced they die (or become an abomination); they should be considered Gnosis 1 for whatever may require such a stat (not that they can use their gnosis at that point, anyway).
    Also Storyteller's Hanbook revised, FAQ section, iirc. Therefore the validity of this answer might not be given in W20, for it is unclear if just the gift "Scent of the true form" became weaker (not being able to tell Garou and kin appart anymore), or if really the setting was changed to "each and every kinfolk has the inherent possibility to have a first change. Garou aren't born garou, they are born kin".

    There are some passages in W20 that strongly suggest the authors of W20 wanted to lean into the latter interpretation, and BNS's Werewolf clearly does go into this direction aswell.

    Originally posted by Maris Streck View Post
    Hrrm, prime should not work that way, it's the detection and manipulation of Quintessence. Maybe you could say that a Garou has an higher native Quintessence (gnosis) in his pattern and therefore pops up as "more spiritual" than a common human? It should still be such an inert Gnosis that I'd definitely ask for at least three successes. Spirit should work basically in the same way.
    It is said in the Pattern Article of White Wolf Wika that "Each Pattern contains a spark of Prime, the original Quintessence that animates the whole Pattern". So my reasoning being, that Prime should be able to tell apart a Kinfolk from a human. Sure, it would require several successes, I guess, for the difference is marginal.

    Originally posted by Illithid View Post
    In 2nd ed (?) There was a spirit rite, talon or fetish that watched over a kinfolk to warn you if they went through the first change so you could find them. That would have no need if you could use a common-as-dirt gift to sense them from birth.
    There still is: a Rite called "Baptism of Fire". It binds a special servant of the tribal totem, a kin-fetch to a baby garou (or any other age of a pre-change garou, really) watching over them and alerting others of her tribe if the first-change comes closer. The Rite explicitly states it is only for garou babies and that "Scent of the true form" will allow ti discriminate garou from kin. It even states so in W20, because the Rite was copy&pasted from revised. Therefore further strengthening my statement taht W20 authors changed aspects of the setting on a whim, carelessly.

    EDIT: The Rite is also a means for a tribe to claim a baby garou as one of their own - so while the full membership into a tribe comes with passing the Rite of Passage, tribes still lay claim to their tribe's offspring and care for them, meaning they will come if a kin-fetch alerts them and ease the cub into garou society and educate him in tribal ways to bring him into the tribe.
    Last edited by heinrich; 01-26-2019, 05:11 AM.

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  • Illithid
    replied
    In 2nd ed (?) There was a spirit rite, talon or fetish that watched over a kinfolk to warn you if they went through the first change so you could find them. That would have no need if you could use a common-as-dirt gift to sense them from birth.

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  • Maris Streck
    replied
    Originally posted by heinrich View Post
    Iirc, it states pre-change garou aren't detected anymore. This is a huge change, for it shakes up the whole kin/garou dynamic.
    Actually I remember that in Revised it always was that kinfolks could not be discovered before birth and with the W20 edition I had this "garou and kinfolks are detected automatically". It changed my whole campaign when the W20 put out the Scent of the True form with "you can detect kins and garou automatically", I can also remember people on this forum pointing out that it was how you detected who was going to be a garou.

    Also, could a pre-change garou and a gaou now mate and not produce a metis?
    Yes, that was clarified on some supplement I can't remember. Pre-change garou are still garou, if they mate they produce a metis and if they're embraced they die (or become an abomination); they should be considered Gnosis 1 for whatever may require such a stat (not that they can use their gnosis at that point, anyway).

    I guess any Mage could use Prime to check for a sympatic connection that makes a person kin.
    Hrrm, prime should not work that way, it's the detection and manipulation of Quintessence. Maybe you could say that a Garou has an higher native Quintessence (gnosis) in his pattern and therefore pops up as "more spiritual" than a common human? It should still be such an inert Gnosis that I'd definitely ask for at least three successes. Spirit should work basically in the same way.

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  • Illithid
    replied
    Originally posted by Lian View Post
    Ok! I have a profoundly stupid way of detecting Kinfolk for vampires. Find a Ventrue who's feeding restriction is kinfolk, see who he can eat!
    With the merit that lets you smell who your feeding restriction is!

    heinrich It might take a combination of Prime, Spirit and Life to sense the minute differences. Or a bit of Time to look forward and see if they change

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  • heinrich
    replied
    I guess any Mage could use Prime to check for a sympatic connection that makes a person kin. But given the rule, that kin unless they have supernatural powers are basically human/wolf, the difficulty might be high or a lot successes might be needed to find the supernatural "kin marker".

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  • Lian
    replied
    Ok! I have a profoundly stupid way of detecting Kinfolk for vampires. Find a Ventrue who's feeding restriction is kinfolk, see who he can eat!

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  • heinrich
    replied
    Originally posted by The Laughing Stranger View Post
    Yeah, W20 Scent of the True Form allows for kinfolk to be detected automatically, in addition to other Garou.
    Iirc, it states pre-change garou aren't detected anymore. This is a huge change, for it shakes up the whole kin/garou dynamic.

    Previously, one could determine shortly afer birth, if a chid is bred true or not. If the cub wasn't raised as a human in secrecy or for some other reason, but was raised knowing within a sept and among kinfolk, then the child always know of the high hopes the family has in him and so on, while kin-sibings always knew, they were only 2nd to their true bred relatives. The whole Samuel Haight inferiority complex stems from this fact.
    Now, in W20, it is presented, as if garou were never able to tell pre-change garou and kin apart, meaning that every kin person could potentially be a garou, who for some reason hasn't changed yet. It makes the whole social dynamic between garou and kin totally different.

    Also, could a pre-change garou and a gaou now mate and not produce a metis? What if the change happens during pregnancy, it the child then transformed into a metis or does it stay homid/lupus?
    Really, I have now idea what they were thinking when they decided to change this concept within WtA, except
    "Hey, wouldn't it be coll if we could shift the majority of starting characters to Lost Cubs"
    - "But garou can detect if a child is garou or not, it's even in the revised Edition FAQs'
    "So, let's change that.'
    - "We should think that through, though. There might be more to that than just one gift."
    "Ah, people who buy W20 won't play it, they buy the Heavy Metal Edition to keep it behind glass. So don't worry"

    The way I remember it, unlike the open development on W20 Chaning Breeds, the W20 Core didn't really incorporate the suggestions made in the Forums.

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  • gx240
    replied
    Originally posted by The Laughing Stranger View Post
    My half-serious suggestion? Make friends with a ronin or Black Spiral Dancer who can use ‘scent the true form.’
    Talk about living dangerously. Some of the other changing breeds have it as well, and are probably less risky than trying to haggle with a Black Spiral Dancer. Corvid Corax can get Scent of the True Form as a starting gift, and all Mokole can get Sight of the True Form as a starting gift (slightly different name but it's the same ability). I think a few other Fera have it too.

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  • mrobviousjosh
    replied
    Originally posted by Lachdanan View Post

    My question is: From what a hack should a vampire know that they should look for a Kinfolk, who is, by basic Vamp powers, undistinguishable from normal humans. (Except when you drink from them, the muffs hit you HARD.)
    There's a lot of Vampire lore that supports a handful of vampires knowing about werewolves. Supernatural Ally (werewolf) merit gives a RP reason to know lupine/garou lore, which is a recognized secondary knowledge, the Supernatural Kinfolk merit mentioned above as well (if vampire were selected as opposed to say wraith or something), and then there are ronin who are easily corrupted and could divulge secrets, Auspex which at higher levels allows telepathy so something could be gleamed from it (hell, even something like people's journals and family memoirs could give away what being a kinfolk is), and then there are abominations/black spiral dancers/etc. that could all be sources of such information. It's not outside the realm of possibility, just uncommon (much like how old school werewolves most didn't have silver tolerance but some chose to select the merit, expensive as it was).

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  • The Laughing Stranger
    replied
    Originally posted by Illithid View Post
    'Scent of the True Form',

    Rank 1 Philodox Gift
    This Gift allows the Garou to determine the true nature of a person. This information is conveyed as an olfactory sensation — it is actually a scent of the target’s natural form. Any spirit servant of Gaia can teach this Gift.
    System: The Garou can tell automatically when someone is a werewolf; anything else requires a Perception + Primal-Urge roll. It takes two successes to detect vampires, faeries or other shapeshifters as such, and it takes four to detect fomori or mages.

    Unless W20 is different?
    Yeah, W20 Scent of the True Form allows for kinfolk to be detected automatically, in addition to other Garou.

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