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Can spirits soak the claws of a werewolf?

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  • Can spirits soak the claws of a werewolf?

    If spirits can soak with willpower, that also mean that they can soak the aggravated damage of a werewolf' s claws? Or do spirits take the damage but make for it with their large essence pools?

  • #2
    They can. It's not indicated otherwise.


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    • #3
      Spirits can soak any damage type the ST seems appropriate and case any damage type the ST feels is appropriate.

      So, as Lachdanan stated, in general claw damage is soaked by spirits. However, a fragile spirit might not be allowed to soak aggravated damage.

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      • #4
        Originally posted by heinrich View Post
        However, a fragile spirit might not be allowed to soak aggravated damage.
        Or it's concept does not allow it.

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        • #5
          That sounds pretty tough to beat given that spirits have large essence pools. Even a scrag has an essence pool of 20 which would take time to wear down. A Nexus Crawler might have 60 or more points which would make it a monumental pack effort to bring down

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          • #6
            I only let spirits soak if they have something like an armor charm active. As MaryShelly stated, spirits have enough essence/power to make combat a grind already. No need to drag it out further by adding an extra step in each attack and having some attacks glance off entirely. Scrags are particularly annoying to run if you allow them to soak, just thanks to their rage/willpower/gnosis setup.

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            • #7
              Originally posted by The Laughing Stranger View Post
              I only let spirits soak if they have something like an armor charm active. As MaryShelly stated, spirits have enough essence/power to make combat a grind already. No need to drag it out further by adding an extra step in each attack and having some attacks glance off entirely. Scrags are particularly annoying to run if you allow them to soak, just thanks to their rage/willpower/gnosis setup.
              that's exactly what I was thinking. A Scrag that can soak will require a huge amount of time to destroy, while one that cannot will be about equal to an average werewolf just starting out. Since Scrags are just the conscript soldiers of the Wyrm I would go with the latter. A Nexus Crawler with 60 Essence would be an effort for a pack which sounds abut right, with a soak it would take ages to destroy.

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              • #8
                Well, spirits can't spend Rage for additional rounds in combat and therefore don't usually dodge either.
                So, Soak really is their own method to avoid damage, really - extra soak dice from armor charm not withstanding.

                Essence is supposed to be the sum of Willpower, Gnosis, and Rage of the spirit, so it's rather limited for most spirits. They also use it for some of their Charms.

                I would go with 2nd or W20 Edition, having damage against spirits be rolled against 6 and give them soak against 6. I would avoid revised edition, where the difficulty to damage a spirit is based on it's rage, at all cost.

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by maryshelly View Post
                  That sounds pretty tough to beat given that spirits have large essence pools. Even a scrag has an essence pool of 20 which would take time to wear down. A Nexus Crawler might have 60 or more points which would make it a monumental pack effort to bring down
                  Let's say the average Werewolf, in Crinos has a strength of 7, a dexterity of 4 and a brawl of 4, with no specialization. Let's assume no relevant gifts.
                  This means he will hit the spirit with 4 successes (+3 dice of damage).
                  He will roll 12 dice of damage (7 strength + 2 claws + 3 success to hit), dealing 6 damage per attack.

                  Let's say a garou spends 2 or 3 rage points to make 3 or 4 attacks. This means dealing 21 points of damage per turn. A pack of 4 Garous would deal 80 points of damage aprox in the first turn of combat (or 90/100 if we have some relevant gifts).

                  Should a Rank 1 garou pack take down a Nexus Crawler in 1 round?

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by erSito View Post

                    Let's say a garou spends 2 or 3 rage points to make 3 or 4 attacks. This means dealing 21 points of damage per turn. A pack of 4 Garous would deal 80 points of damage aprox in the first turn of combat (or 90/100 if we have some relevant gifts).

                    Should a Rank 1 garou pack take down a Nexus Crawler in 1 round?
                    Seems straw-man-y.

                    A Nexus Crawler can have lots of health (200+, if memory serves). My whole pack doesn't have the rage to sustain the damage you are assuming. Also, you seem to be assuming the Crawler isn't slaughtering at least a single Garou each turn. Even while disallowing soak, the beast is is going to be more than a challenge- especially when it is turning the air into solid glass and replacing people's blood with liquid nitrogen. If you really want it to be the exception to the rule, let the thing get some soak by giving itself armor. Nexus Crawlers can almost do whatever they want.

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by The Laughing Stranger View Post
                      Seems straw-man-y.

                      A Nexus Crawler can have lots of health (200+, if memory serves). My whole pack doesn't have the rage to sustain the damage you are assuming. Also, you seem to be assuming the Crawler isn't slaughtering at least a single Garou each turn. Even while disallowing soak, the beast is is going to be more than a challenge- especially when it is turning the air into solid glass and replacing people's blood with liquid nitrogen. If you really want it to be the exception to the rule, let the thing get some soak by giving itself armor. Nexus Crawlers can almost do whatever they want.
                      A Nexus Clawer, in the W20 book has between 30 and 100 essence.

                      Can you put this into real numbers? A Nexus Crawler has only 1 action per turn.

                      If it attacks it would deal (Rage 10), Rolls 10 dice to attack, hits with 5 successes: +4 damage.
                      Rolls 14 dice of damage (10 Rage + 4 successes) Deals 7 damage.
                      Average WW in Crinos has stamina 6, socks 3 damages, takes 4 damages.
                      RESULT: Rank 1 pack, with no gifts takes down a Nexus Crawler in 1 round of combat with only flesh wounds.

                      If NC tries to do one of those instantaneous killing effects, it requires 5 success, difficulty 7 with 6 dice. I'm not going to calculate this statistic now, but I guess 95% of the times the Nexus Crawler will try this strategy will die before dealing a single point of damage.

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                      • #12
                        RAW (most) Spirits don't get a soak vs Aggravated damage without use of the Armour charm. However the rules for Spirits are purposely flexible to allow a Storyteller to do what they want with spirits to allow for whatever story or feel they are wishing to invoke.

                        Now the Scrag, I've always been in two minds about the Scrag. It's a foot soldier of the Wyrm and with 6 dice of soak it's not that hard for a Garou to hurt in all honesty. However, it does say under the Scrag's description that one Scrag is not a match for a Garou but a pack of a dozen is a serious threat. Looking at that statement alone makes the assumption that Scrags shouldn't be rolling soak vs Agg damage and that reasonably an average Garou should be able to take apart a solo Scrag in short order. Weight of numbers should be a tool for the Wyrm but the problem comes in with an ST making a dozen separate attack and damage rolls and sometimes that's just not what they want to do, sadly while there are Pack tactics for PC's and NPC packs, there's not really any Swarm type rules for things like banes. So if your pack of a dozen Scrags jumps on your PC pack of Three Garou you can run them individually or you could make a single attack roll granting +1 or +2 dice per extra Scrag and raising the difficulty of any dodge by 1 per scrag or two to a max of say 9.

                        Either way the Garou are going to take some time to rip through the Scrags and take some damage in return.

                        As for the Crawler? Sure it can have the Armour charm or it can soak naturally or both.

                        When it comes to Spirits the needs of the story trump the rather open rules of the book really. Certainly anything bigger than Jaggling should probably be soaking Agg as well as having lots of Essence.

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Moirdryd View Post
                          RAW (most) Spirits don't get a soak vs Aggravated damage without use of the Armour charm.
                          Where is the page reference to this "Rules As Written"?

                          Werwolf W20 very clearly states that:
                          1. Willpower is used for attack.
                          2. Willpower is used to soak.
                          3. Unsoaked damage reduces Essence, regardless of bein bashing, lethal or aggravated.

                          Its on page 366. To me this clearly indicates that spirits soak damage, period.

                          Sure, "Armor Charm" reads, "gains soak pool" instead of "gains bonus to soak pool", but, well, the proof reading for any book is pretty lacking with OPP, as it was with White Wolf, imo.

                          In the aggravated damage entry only humans are mentioned to not soak aggravated damage....

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                          • #14
                            Page 290 'soaking damage' aggravated paragraph.

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                            • #15
                              Page 290 reads: " Non-Garou, of course, can’t soak aggravated damage at all unless they have some form of supernatural resistance to such injuries."

                              So, it doesn't per sé state, that spirits can't soak aggravated damage, for they could have "some form of supernatural resistance to such injuries". Browsing over Bastet, Corax and Gurahl, as written in W20, none of them mention being allowed to soak aggravated, but we all agree they should be allowed to, right?

                              I'd rule that page 366's mention "When damaged, spirits soak with Willpower (possibly enhanced by the Armor charm). Spirits with high Willpower can also use it to dodge, but they must split their dice pool if they want to dodge more than once, or to attack and dodge. All unsoaked damage is subtracted from the spirit’s Essence, whether it’s bashing, lethal, or aggravated." indicates that spirits have "some form of supernatural resistance to such injuries." as it clearly states damage can be soaked (implicitly regardless of type) and is subtracted from Essence (explicitly regardless of type).

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