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Can spirits soak the claws of a werewolf?

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  • #16
    Which is why I phrased my first response the way I did. RAW literally in W20 means that indeed even the Fera (with the exception of Kitsune) can't soak Agg either, RAI we well know is otherwise and it's not a massive leap of logic to get there. Spirits are weird because the answer is, pretty much as I put at the end of my first response, "What does your story need the spirit to do?" because that's the best barometer.

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    • #17
      True. But I usually wan't to know what is written. But in this case, it is really unsatisfying...

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      • #18
        Hence the swarm thing and the advice they give in the Spirits (and the Banes section) about modifying the base stats to need.

        From my personal chronicles over the years; A swarm of Scrags isn't just a serious threat it's a TPK hazard if they're rolling soak vs claws, but take that soak away and you can get away with them just being a serious threat because the Garou pack will be ripping them to pieces but getting hit back hard in the process. Where as one or two Armour Charm using Scrags can also pump up the danger factor and shock the characters who thought they knew scrags and you can mix the two for added combat effect.

        Now anything with a Defense or Stamina theme to it or if it's just very 'powerful' I totally let soak armour charm or not, where as with things that are more fragile in nature I don't always even give a Lethal soak to. I think that's one of the reasons we don't have a definitive Yes or No directly given under the Spirits header is because of how nebulous the catchall for Spirits is.

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        • #19
          Originally posted by Moirdryd View Post
          A swarm of Scrags isn't just a serious threat it's a TPK hazard if they're rolling soak vs claws,
          The Garou should have much more in the pocket then claws. In the (in)glorious past we could damage them with the difficulty of their Rage (?). The players thought twice which spirit should they mess with.

          They spirits have serious disadvantages. They act 1/ round. Without porper charm do lethal damage. Most of them can't cross the Gauntlet. Susceptible to tons of Gifts / Rites.

          The Garou have contacts, weapons, Fetishes, Gifts, Rites, spirit-allies and usable Rage.

          Let the Banes soak...


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          • #20
            In the (in)glorious past they put our a rules change in, I want to say the players guide, to drop Scrag's Rage to 8 due to the diff to damage rule. A swarm of Scrags should be a moderately common occurrence in parts of the Umbral City and those are parts that Garou will see fairly often depending on the flavour of a given story or chronicle. Yes the Garou have plenty of other toys too and should be fighting clever, but sometimes that isn't an option or all the options are just brutal and simple ones.

            A great deal of my spirits have soaked vs agg over the years, but as I say the needs of the story is a better way to handle them, so i changed to running things that way rather than using my previous ruling back in the day of them all soaking agg and the result was:

            My players (both the old hacks and the new faces) felt more like their characters were a credible threat to their enemies, not that they ever didn't but where once they saw 3 Scrags (and we are using them a lot in examples here, but hey foot soldiers of the Wyrm) and prepped for a mid-solid fight they could now actually take on a small swarm, it'd get bloody but it was the kind of scene that the art and verse had inspired in the beginning. It meant that those characters who had invested in tertiary physical stats and not put many points into brawl felt they were adding something to a fight because even their 4 dice attack with 8+successes dice of damage was having an serious impact, they can even take them one on one, or even two on one against, and still have the edge. It also made banes that did roll for soaking their attacks more of a surprise and shock and fighting BSDs something far more frightening (imho a pack of Cliath should find running into a mirror of themselves in BSD form more dangerous than a equally numbered Scrag pack). It also helped make aggravated damage a little more special as I once did see a spat of characters who'd use Dedicated weapons doing Lethal with a bigger +str boost over using claw and fang (or klaive) because it was as good as the agg sources vs soak but bigger numbers making it more effective (even worse if you used weapon length rules), claws typically came out only for Vampires and any Fomori who looked like they could soak lethal.

            Ultimately by going with a default of 'they don't' and then letting the Armour charm and story needs determine exceptions I found that I could populate my Umbra more thickly with the servants of the Wyrm, give my players the feeling of being outnumbered by the enemy but being truly dangerous themselves (Warriors of Gaia and all that) and get their characters to that point where some of them are indeed weighing Glory or Wisdom when they encounter situations and foes.

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            • #21
              Yes, I believe they can.

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