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Relationship between the Corax and Camazotz?

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  • Relationship between the Corax and Camazotz?

    I’ve been poking my nose into every piece of info I have available, and I have to wonder......

    How did the Corax and Camazotz get along? I can see lots of arguments for opposing views the Corax could have had on the Camazotz.

    On one hand, I imagine that the Corax, being among the wiser Fera, would be appreciative of the fact that there are flying, sneaky spies who regularly operate during night, so they never have to flip their sleep schedule for a day so they can be awake all night. I also imagine that there was some level of note-swapping between the Corax and Camazotz, especially considering how much the Camazotz probably desperately wanted to save the Wyrm from the Weaver’s web and fight against the mockery that is the Triatic Wyrm.

    On the other hand, not only might there be some jealousy and suspicion between two different Gaian-aligned spy networks.....but while the Camazotz seem to be made to find and control information/secrets, the Corax are made to discover almost every secret and spread almost as many secrets to everyone they can. The Camazotz would likely be deeply annoyed by how careful they must be not to give Helios’s adopted kids any information they don’t want others to know, and to stop them from discovering those secrets on their own. The Corax have shown that they are capable of begrudgingly admitting that some secrets are best kept secret (when talking about Rokea, the narrator of the breedbook says that Gaia didn’t make the Corax waterproof for a reason), but still.
    Beyond that, while there’s nothing i’ve come across which makes this seem certain, the Corax were playing the role of mole during the War of Rage, and while they were firmly on the side of the Fera and were giving them the more useful information and sneaking them through the Umbra.....well, as dumb as the Garou can be, even they would likely notice if the Corax kept giving nearly useless information, so I imagine that the extinction of the Camazotz may or may not have started wirh Corax giving information about Camazotz hiding spots (to what extent, and whether or not they knew about the South American Camazotz communities, and if they would have been ok with sharing that info, are even less clear).

    What do you all think?

  • #2
    As far as I remember, there's a short section about Camazotz in the Corax Breedbook.
    If I remember it rightly, the approach was rather melanchonic, like to an odd friend that passed away.

    Dark Shores: Lineages of the Great Lakes
    Fingers of the Eldest: Bogatyri


    • #3
      I haven’t found anything yet. I’ve read the breedbook several times (in time, i’m gonna play as other Fera, Kindred, and probably even mages and changelings and lots of things, but i’m basically a Corax at heart), and they never mention the Camazotz (extinct breeds aren’t mentioned among the Garou and other Fera), but there’s a bit of self-guilt-tripping in the War of Rage section about collaborating with the Garou, so I get the sense they must fee l sad about not getting to meet the Camazotz D:


      • #4
        Ok, this is strange. As I definitely read it somewhere...

        I'll do a check on other books too later or tomorrow and report back!

        Dark Shores: Lineages of the Great Lakes
        Fingers of the Eldest: Bogatyri


        • #5
          In the Shattered Dreams there were some information about it.

          Depends on the time period. There were times when there were allies against Garou-Hunting packs, other times they fought for territory.


          • #6
            I always kind of had this image in my head of two siblings (or friends close enough to be such) where at some point, one chose to follow the Sun and the other the Moon, causing a rift between them, one living in the North and the other the South, not enemies but no longer the close friends they used to be. Then the one died, and the other was forced to spend the rest of their days thinking about what might have been.

            What is tolerance? It is the consequence of humanity. We are all formed of frailty and error; let us pardon reciprocally each other's folly. That is the first law of nature.
            Voltaire, "Tolerance" (1764)


            • #7
              As I recall, they were ideally supposed to have a day-shift, night-shift kind of relationship.


              • #8
                Yeah, the Corax breedbook doesn't mention the Camazotz, at least not directly. But the War of Rage section in that book does mention how the Corax played both sides (or at least directly helped the refugees get away while giving worthless intelligence to the Garou so as to not be the next in their sights). And Raven himself told the Corax not to actively fight against the Garou because Raven knew that would lead to the Corax's extinction, which would lead to Gaia being in even greater danger if the Garou were without the Corax's help during the End Times. That was the guilt that the Corax narrator mentioned: the Corax wanted to more actively help end the War of Rage, but their own spirit father (for very good reasons) directly told them no. That's where the "what if" questions in the Corax book come in.

                As for the relations between the Corax and the Camazotz, it's mentioned in Shattered Dreams, page 34, that "the Corax mistrust the Camazotz because the bats don’t appreciate the nuance of a good story, and dry facts often lack context. Conversely, the bats are wary of the way the ravens easily build rapport while selling lies as truth." Furthermore, on page 60, it's mentioned that the Camazotz are "perhaps the quietest of the Changing Breeds. They hate bringing attention to themselves and will stay out of sight at the back of any gatherings." And the Corax are all about bringing attention to things, so it's easy to see how the shy guys of the Changing Breeds would be averse to the idea of associating with the Changing Breed equivalent of the guys who are always shouting "Hey, guys! COME TAKE A LOOK AT THIS!" Sure, the Camazotz's purpose is to pass along information to the other Changing Breeds just like the Corax, but while the Corax are loud blabbermouths (their nature and Raven demand that of them), the Camazotz prefer to be alot less unobtrusive about it. Also, Shattered Dreams also says on Page 60, that "the Camazotz only share information if they believe that the other breeds need to know it, and they will only share it at the time when the others need it. The rest of the information they keep to themselves, continuing to gain a greater understanding of what is going on around them on both sides of the Gauntlet."

                In light of all this, it's not surprising that the relations between the Camazotz and the Corax would be lukewarm at best.

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