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  • Werewolf 5th concerns

    Reposting this link cause great points and he's more qualified than myself.

    https://youtu.be/0tUL6VtKFxc

    If werewolf the Apocalypse fifth edition becomes a possibility, I don't want werewolf to go where vampire went. For a lot of reasons

    1. It's viseral. It helps with the gravitas of not only my actions, but other players and villains.
    2. Werewolf thrives on conflict. Physical and mental. Your a dangerous beast who can kill at a drop of a hat. Cite, Wolf man, werewolf of London, skinwalkers.
    3. shapeshifters are the original body horror. Your body warping and contorting to reshape your flesh.
    4. The topics that would be cringing. I play werewolf to do those feats that I as me normally wouldn't be able to do or have the abilities to serve Gaia that doesn't involve annoying my senators every so often.
    5. I really don't want the tribes redesigned to fit the social justus warrior narrative. Not only it's been taken care of, but like any wolf pack, there are alphas and omegas, on pack and tribal level. If pack Dynamics get tweaked to fit the new discoveries with wolf social structure then go for it.


    Got a few more but it'll sound like I'm repeating the same points. In the age of outrage and the golden hair, I want my games focused on the real matters at hand. Like any good werewolf movie, it shouldn't be soft.


    Onyx Path Kickstarters I back.
    W20, MtC, CB20, DtD, MtAs20, BotW20, Wraith 20th.

  • #2
    Werewolf 5th edition has already been mentioned - White Wolf are working on it.

    I wouldn't take a mind to that ranting on the link provided though.

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by PaladinDemo View Post
      Reposting this link cause great points and he's more qualified than myself.
      I want my 20 minutes back personally. "I hate SJWs, so V5 sucks," isn't a great point and... yeah, that's about all that was said in those 20 minutes. I'm not a fan of V5. I do not like V5's direction and what it implies for W5... but there's actual good points to make about that, none of which are present in this nonsense video.

      You list also seems well... divorced from what's in V5 and WtA already anyway.

      Comment


      • #4
        As far as I'm concerned werewolf was always a game about (pardon me for using the term) Social Justice Warrior.
        WtA has never been a game about "killing things", It is a game about saving the planet from its excess.
        One of the underlying themes of werewolf revised was that if fera had spent more time "annoying their senators" than slashing casually at things the overall situation would be better.

        Besides the tribes have always been about various kind of "SWJ" (again sorry for the term, I really think it's terrible)

        Wendigo with their problems with White colonialism, or the Children of Gaia, or the Furies who fought sexism and patriarchy, or the hyper-primitivist Red Talons, or against the bone gnawers Who lived in the lowest strata of society...in any case I think everything it's already there.

        Even the "werewolves thrives on conflict" it's wrong.

        The book are incredibly clear that conflict is killing the fera. Since the war of rage.
        The eternal conflict is not making the garou stronger, it's weakening them generation after generation.

        Even more, by embracing conflict blindly werewolves embrace the wyrm. There are reason if wisdom should go side by side with honor and valor.

        If you kill a pentex employee, maybe you will weaken pentex, but you will empower the urge wyrms in Malfeas.

        It is an underlying theme in the world or Darkness: the splats are blinded and distracted by trivial things that keep them from the important things. The blinding thing can varies, It can be Ascension War for mages, the jhyad for Vampires, or the internal conflicts of the Tribes.

        The Tribes are not stronger because Konietzko and Albrecht are at each other's throtat. Eternal strife just helps the wyrm.

        Just think about the story of the White Howlers. It's a giant metaphor of what is wrong with werewolves. You can't just throw yourself at the wyrm, Klaive in hands,fangs first. If you attack without wisdome, if you live just by rage, you are walking the spyral of the wyrm. The Howlers went on and one down the spyral, fighting at every level with even more rage. End in the end they were the Howlers no more, but the Black Spyral Dancers.
        Last edited by Undead rabbit; 08-30-2018, 06:08 AM.

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        • #5
          Werewolves and Mummies are "SJWs" kind of by definition. Well they're not all warriors. You have your rogues, paladins, priests...

          I mean how could a game about the earth fighting back against humanity's worst excesses NOT be political and progressive? With that said, Werewolves are incredibly conservative on many social issues (the Litany springs to mind) and so it's in a similar position to Mage. It has Conservative (My Mage thinks the world was perfect before X and wants to go back to it) and Liberal elements (the world will be perfect when we Y), which seems to only upset conservative types in my experience, who complain endlessly about M20 being SJW nonsense or something like that. Who would have thought that a game about people wanting to change the world for the better might end up having diverse political elements.

          I'm going to try and resist an urge to threadcap, but it's hard to see "I believe this game about supernatural (anti)heroes saving the world from corrupt corporations and pollution (and sometimes protecting the rights of marginalized groups like Aboriginals and the First Nations) and fighting a spiritual manifestation of greed and malice is going to become too socially progressive for my liking." and not make fun of it a *little* bit.
          Last edited by 11twiggins; 08-30-2018, 06:02 AM.

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          • #6
            Rewriting the Tribes to fit them in social nowdays clothes would be in my opinion the big mistake. Very big mistake. They are conservative. Right. Would Red Talons change? Yes they could be more radical. Would Glass Walkers change? they would be more in Weaver grip cause of overwhelming tech life (the Weaver is winning the war isn't she, twit, face and inst made the peoples living drones, Wyrm is one step after her, and Wyld just try to defend himself like always but much more violent) ... I could write about every tribe but it's not necessary,

            Werewolf is conflict game. WW already redesigned game logo with big WAR glyph, so it might mean that it's all out conflict. I see tribes more pissed and agresive. Don't know about the totems. I would like to see the game more ,,sharp" - we against them. We against everyone who's trying to step on our sacret grounds. How the new inquisition would chase the ,,ghosts" ? Yes, Vampires are in real problem, but garou can always step side to Umbra and strike like ghosts they partly are.

            Am I affraid about Werewolf 5th? Yes and no. If Gentelman Gamer would be leader of this project I (after W20 Book of Wyrm) am confident about his ideas and skills and it might be very good game.

            I am afraid that they would put all the garou tribes in LGBT frames cause it's trendy nowdays. I wish a raw pure adrenaline game. But it's only my wishlist and nothing more.

            Comment


            • #7
              Considering that LGBT people make up a significant percentage of the population, including them in tabletop games isn't a political move. It's apolitical.

              Excluding LGBT people, however, can be a political move on the part of developers.

              "LGBT inclusion is just trendy" unknowlingly means, in many cases, "this is new and confusing to me and is probably being included to make me uncomfortable." It's not that any of this is new (I can show you cultures that have existed for thousands of years with a "third gender", and examples of publicly accepted homosexual romance/lust in ancient civilizations like Rome and Athens and Sparta), it's that it *feels* new because more people can be more honest about who they are and don't feel the need to hide it. No one is going to apologize if it upsets you.

              All it takes is a sidebar explaining that the Furies accept non-binary and trans women into their ranks (perhaps with some of their Elders being very conservative on the issue and only wanting "women born women" among them). That won't turn Werewolf into a Lesbian Feelings Simulator; these Furies would still be tearing banes and fomori apart, the table would just feel more inclusive to certain people who want to play. It can be an action-fueled murder-fest and also be inclusive and positive. And do the Litany's demands that Garou don't lay with other Garou apply to same-sex couples? These are issues which would be very important to a lot of people in the Garou Nation. Greek armies sometimes paired young men together and encouraged them to fall in love (either platonically or romantically) so that they would fight well to protect eachother, watch eachother's backs. I bring this up because it shows that you can tell a story about homoeroticism which is still incredibly violent and action-driven.

              Speaking of LGBT stuff, can someone remind me if anyone other than the Ananasi can learn that Gift where they become the opposite sex? Obviously most use it for disguise or seduction (and in extreme cases for fertility), but there's definitely room for someone to play a Loki style character who flips between man and woman depending on the context.
              Last edited by 11twiggins; 08-30-2018, 07:21 AM.

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              • #8
                Indeed, in ancient greece the Theban Sacred Band (300 warriors, 150 couples) was the most elite unit in Greece. So incredible it was that the Sacred Band destroyed the Spartiates at Leuttra, and at the time Spartiates were known to had no rival in open field battles.
                After Leuttra the Band was undefeated for 30 years, and perished only when it met Alexander in the field.

                So getting homosexuals in the tribes really doens't diminish the "action-drive" of the setting, it just allows more people to play freely the game.
                Besides, I do not really recall "homophobia" as one of the core theme of Werewolf.
                Last edited by Undead rabbit; 08-30-2018, 07:36 AM.

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by Undead rabbit View Post
                  Indeed, in ancient greece the Theban Sacred Band was the most elite unit in Greece. So incredible it was that the Sacred Band destroyed the Spartiates at Leuttra, and at the time Spartiates were known to had no rival in open field battles.
                  After Leuttra the Band was undefeated for 30 years, and perished only when it met Alexander in the field.

                  So getting homosexuals in the tribes really doens't diminish the "action-drive" of the setting, it just allows more people to play freely the game.
                  Besides, I do not really recall "homophobia" as one of the core theme of Werewolf.
                  Wait, the Thebans were the ones who had orgies and got annoyed when people tried to bring girls right? EDIT: Not the sacred band of thebes, a random ancient greek anecdote.

                  And the Spartans were incredibly fierce at that time. A hundred years later they were dying out due to inbreeding; they had a dumb law about only the child of two spartans being a spartan, and deaths from disease and war meant they were marrying cousins and sisters (and sleeping with foreigners, male and female, for fun) as the gene pool narrowed. It didn't help that their education system killed a bunch of boys (they would starve them and make them fight eachother), and that they left any child who "seemed sickly" out in the woods. Spartans are a perfect example of the worst impulses of the Garou nation in an actual civilization, which is quite interesting. So much devotion to strength that they made themselves weak.

                  Athens succeeded because unlike Sparta their horniness wasn't purely directed inward. A lot like the Garou going around sowing wild oats to continue the line.
                  Last edited by 11twiggins; 08-30-2018, 07:44 AM.

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                  • #10
                    It wouldn't be werewolf the Apocalypse if I have to check in or stop if a player doesn't feel comfortable when I approach certain topics. The story can't progress if they would rather respond to flight than fight out of character. The new comfort zone system could be easily exploited, from uncomfortable topics, unfriendly words in or out of character, to the levels of Gore that the game can generate. Also the refusal to discuss what's making a player uncomfortable would halt or end a story. It's not productive, fade to Black should only be used as cliff hangers, and nothing ventured is nothing gained.

                    Sexual identity (not to be confused with gender) was already taken care of in rage across the world 20. The litany say garou shall not lay with garou, it doesnt say what gender. Heading that off at the pass. Me personally I don't care what orientation they are in or out of character, as long as their characters abide by the litany, they can do whatever.


                    Onyx Path Kickstarters I back.
                    W20, MtC, CB20, DtD, MtAs20, BotW20, Wraith 20th.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by 11twiggins View Post

                      I'm going to try and resist an urge to threadcap, but it's hard to see "I believe this game about supernatural (anti)heroes saving the world from corrupt corporations and pollution (and sometimes protecting the rights of marginalized groups like Aboriginals and the First Nations) and fighting a spiritual manifestation of greed and malice is going to become too socially progressive for my liking." and not make fun of it a *little* bit.
                      Especially, since that has been the game from its very inception. For all the Captain Planet jibes against WtA, at least it has never stopped outright acknowledging that stuff needs to be done and there is no magic bullet to fix the world or its issues. One of my favourite things about it HAS been that the struggle with the american tribes is REALLY complicated and no true fix can be ever found for it without some huge introspection by Fianna, Silver Fangs, Fenrir and Children of Gaia.


                      To the LTGBA+ and WtA thing, I have to admit that Chaging Ways' Metis section pretty much did that wrong. The constant "But look, they are gay,TOO" in the most childish way really grinded on me, and I wanted there to be a blatant 'Yes, garou are more tolerant of homosexuality' message in the book. THAT is what I fear for W5 over what the video says, poorly executed concepts that are surface level and don't really go into the meat of the issue.

                      That, and the Wendigo section in that chapter is horrid.


                      My gallery.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by PaladinDemo View Post
                        It wouldn't be werewolf the Apocalypse if I have to check in or stop if a player doesn't feel comfortable when I approach certain topics. The story can't progress if they would rather respond to flight than fight out of character. The new comfort zone system could be easily exploited, from uncomfortable topics, unfriendly words in or out of character, to the levels of Gore that the game can generate. Also the refusal to discuss what's making a player uncomfortable would halt or end a story. It's not productive, fade to Black should only be used as cliff hangers, and nothing ventured is nothing gained.
                        A player who doesn't want to explore the concepts found in WtA won't join a WtA game. If they are asking you to not deal with certain topics, there is a very good reason for that. You don't know their history or reasons why they feel they cannot deal with subjects in a safe setting, but you should respect that they are brave enough to speak about it.

                        Roleplaying is meant to be fun for everyone, dredging up old traumas is the polar opposite of fun for people.


                        My gallery.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Ana Mizuki View Post

                          A player who doesn't want to explore the concepts found in WtA won't join a WtA game. If they are asking you to not deal with certain topics, there is a very good reason for that. You don't know their history or reasons why they feel they cannot deal with subjects in a safe setting, but you should respect that they are brave enough to speak about it.

                          Roleplaying is meant to be fun for everyone, dredging up old traumas is the polar opposite of fun for people.
                          I mean we've slipped from "I don't want it to be LGBT trendy SJW stuff" to "I don't want to have to consider the wellbeing of my players", this is starting to feel like quite the downward spiral (if you'll pardon the allusion).

                          I mean I include some really horrible stuff when I run VtM and MtA, and the only WtA game I have planned for the future is one which ends with the New Wyrm and Ananasa (The New Weaver) murdering all of the player characters with a swarm of Ananasi Metis and wyrmish spirits as a bittersweet reward for helping them replace the corrupted members of the triat, since they've discovered too much and could threaten balance in the future with what they've learned. With that said, I play things by ear and I don't push too hard. One of my players lost a friend to suicide, so when I did the session 0 of my Vampire game I asked her if she would struggle to deal with stuff relating to that; as it turns out she was fine and it worked out, but if she had been in a worse place and I hadn't asked it could have led to a huge falling out at the table which would have been my fault.

                          So none of the themes or high action need to be discarded, STs just need to think about their players a bit more and be generally inclusive. None of this will distract from what WtA is about. You can exclude the rapist fomori who murders people with their genitals or bodily fluids if one of the players would find it upsetting or if it felt wrong for the table, and you can always replace it with something that achieves the same effect (a brain eater or a fomorus which spreads a horrific mental illness). And having LGBT werewolves among the PCs won't distract from any of this either. In my game some of the NPCs are gay, including a major antagonist and several of their allies, and it's just a backdrop that effects the social side of the game and alters the prospects of the PCs if any of them want to romance anyone.
                          Last edited by 11twiggins; 08-30-2018, 08:09 AM.

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by PaladinDemo View Post
                            It wouldn't be werewolf the Apocalypse if I have to check in or stop if a player doesn't feel comfortable when I approach certain topics. .

                            And yet Werewolf just tells you to do just that: checking if the player is comfortable.


                            Page 340 of W20 Corebook

                            GOING TOO FAR
                            Horror-based roleplaying games involve consensual exploration of personal and social taboos; pushing limits is part of their appeal. Even in a horror-based game, though, there still are limits. Those boundaries depend upon the player’s tastes, the relationships between those players, the life-experiences they’ve had, the degree to which they trust each other, and the point at which their feelings tilt from enjoyment to alarm. We can’t tell you where those limits are in your particular group, but we can tell you this: Push too far, and you can hurt feelings, wreck friendships, and destroy the gaming group itself.

                            Generally, it’s a good idea to be careful with hotbutton topics. Politics and religion may or may not be fair game, depending on your group. Be very wary of using rape, torture, molestation, domestic violence, or child abuse unless you already have a good sense of your friends’ emotional triggers and the signs they display when someone’s approaching those limits. Even then, we recommend an out-of-game discussion or two about story elements that might trip a player’s trigger… conducted before that story element comes into play. If a player indicates that such-and-such is
                            a hot topic, don’t go there; even if he doesn’t say as much, avoid topics or descriptions that you know, from experience, might seem too sensitive to touch.

                            Taking a page from the BDSM playbook, you might want to offer a safeword for use within your group. If a player starts to feel uncomfortable, he or she can simply use a prearranged phrase or gesture to say, That’s enough. Stop. In that case, all parties are responsible for maintaining limits; the players must assert them, and the Storyteller(s) must respect them. People don’t always recognize their own emotional triggers until after someone’s hit one. For that reason (among others), keep a watchful eye on your players when you start to move into potentially explosive
                            territory. If one friend tenses at your elaborate description of crucified babies, back off and perhaps “fade to black.” A fade-out beats an argument or tears. If or when you do hit emotional land mines, don’t fight for your right to hurt people. Back off, apologize, and maybe call a break while things get sorted out.

                            Yeah, Werewolf is a horror game, but the “game” part comes before the “horror” part. If someone feels traumatized for real, the game’s no longer fun.

                            .

                            So yeah, you can play Werewolf the Apocalypse while checking if players are in or out their comfort-zone. I'll say even more: you can't play Werewolf without doing it.
                            Last edited by Undead rabbit; 08-30-2018, 08:14 AM.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Undead rabbit View Post
                              Page 340 of W20 Corebook

                              GOING TOO FAR

                              Horror-based roleplaying games involve consensual exploration of personal and social taboos; pushing limits is part of their appeal. Even in a horror-based game, though, there still are limits. Those boundaries depend upon the player’s tastes, the relationships between those players, the life-experiences they’ve had, the degree to which they trust each other, and the point at which their feelings tilt from enjoyment to alarm. We can’t tell you where those limits are in your particular group, but we can tell you this: Push too far, and you can hurt feelings, wreck friendships, and destroy the gaming group itself.

                              Generally, it’s a good idea to be careful with hotbutton topics. Politics and religion may or may not be fair game, depending on your group. Be very wary of using rape, torture, molestation, domestic violence, or child abuse unless you already have a good sense of your friends’ emotional triggers and the signs they display when someone’s approaching those limits. Even then, we recommend an out-of-game discussion or two about story elements that might trip a player’s trigger… conducted before that story element comes into play. If a player indicates that such-and-such is a hot topic, don’t go there; even if he doesn’t say as much, avoid topics or descriptions that you know, from experience, might seem too sensitive to touch.

                              Taking a page from the BDSM playbook, you might want to offer a safeword for use within your group. If a player starts to feel uncomfortable, he or she can simply use a prearranged phrase or gesture to say, That’s enough. Stop. In that case, all parties are responsible for maintaining limits; the players must assert them, and the Storyteller(s) must respect them. People don’t always recognize their own emotional triggers until after someone’s hit one. For that reason (among others), keep a watchful eye on your players when you start to move into potentially explosive
                              territory. If one friend tenses at your elaborate description of crucified babies, back off and perhaps “fade to black.” A fade-out beats an argument or tears. If or when you do hit emotional land mines, don’t fight for your right to hurt people. Back off, apologize, and maybe call a break while things get sorted out.

                              Yeah, Werewolf is a horror game, but the “game” part comes before the “horror” part. If someone feels traumatized for real, the game’s no longer fun.


                              So yeah, you can play Werewolf the Apocalypse while checking if players are in or out their comfort-zone. I'll say even more: you can't play Werewolf without doing it.
                              Fully agreed with this. And this is all the more important *because* Werewolf is a horror game. Good horror is, at the end of the day, enjoyable. Even if it's deeply discomforting or gives you some nightmares, horror can be really powerful and worthwhile if it's done well. And having villains who do truly disgusting things makes it more cathartic when you tear them apart, and more terrifying when they defeat you. It helps you to feel like more of a hero. But all of that comes with the caveat of respecting your players.

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