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  • #16
    Originally posted by Undead rabbit View Post
    Indeed, in ancient greece the Theban Sacred Band (300 warriors, 150 couples) was the most elite unit in Greece. So incredible it was that the Sacred Band destroyed the Spartiates at Leuttra, and at the time Spartiates were known to had no rival in open field battles.
    After Leuttra the Band was undefeated for 30 years, and perished only when it met Alexander in the field.
    As a curiosity, it was actually Philippos, Alexander's father.
    At Chaeronea they refused to surrender even after all their allies fled the battle and even if Philippos had tried to negotiate, suggesting to let them go away with all their armors, weapons and fallen comrades. To no avail, apparently, as the Band was firm in not retreating from a battlefield where their friends and lovers had shed their blood.
    And when the last member of the Sacred Band was put down, apparently Philippos seeing they were all fallen fighting, no one ran away, declared "Perish any man who suspects that these men either did or suffered anything unseemly."
    or, as some more cynical viewers think, he just threatened of death penalty any of his soldiers or allies that would have dared to desecrate their corpses.


    Dark Shores: Lineages of the Great Lakes
    Fingers of the Eldest: Bogatyri

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    • #17
      Originally posted by Undead rabbit View Post
      As far as I'm concerned werewolf was always a game about (pardon me for using the term) Social Justice Warrior.
      WtA has never been a game about "killing things", It is a game about saving the planet from its excess.
      One of the underlying themes of werewolf revised was that if fera had spent more time "annoying their senators" than slashing casually at things the overall situation would be better.

      Besides the tribes have always been about various kind of "SWJ" (again sorry for the term, I really think it's terrible)

      Wendigo with their problems with White colonialism, or the Children of Gaia, or the Furies who fought sexism and patriarchy, or the hyper-primitivist Red Talons, or against the bone gnawers Who lived in the lowest strata of society...in any case I think everything it's already there.

      Even the "werewolves thrives on conflict" it's wrong.

      The book are incredibly clear that conflict is killing the fera. Since the war of rage.
      The eternal conflict is not making the garou stronger, it's weakening them generation after generation.

      Even more, by embracing conflict blindly werewolves embrace the wyrm. There are reason if wisdom should go side by side with honor and valor.

      If you kill a pentex employee, maybe you will weaken pentex, but you will empower the urge wyrms in Malfeas.

      It is an underlying theme in the world or Darkness: the splats are blinded and distracted by trivial things that keep them from the important things. The blinding thing can varies, It can be Ascension War for mages, the jhyad for Vampires, or the internal conflicts of the Tribes.

      The Tribes are not stronger because Konietzko and Albrecht are at each other's throtat. Eternal strife just helps the wyrm.

      Just think about the story of the White Howlers. It's a giant metaphor of what is wrong with werewolves. You can't just throw yourself at the wyrm, Klaive in hands,fangs first. If you attack without wisdome, if you live just by rage, you are walking the spyral of the wyrm. The Howlers went on and one down the spyral, fighting at every level with even more rage. End in the end they were the Howlers no more, but the Black Spyral Dancers.
      I couldn't agree more. Well said.

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      • #18
        I could see them doubling down on the core themes of WtA as they move forward.

        Falling to rage is probably going to be their version of hunger dice where things that would piss of a Garou would raise your track rather than staying alive and using disciplines raises hunger. You can use your rage to fuel your power though by keeping control and you would make a control check instead of a rouse check maybe but this may just me looking at V5 and trying to port it over they may do something completely different like uses rage as the humanity tracker instead. Who knows? To lower your rage you have to do something that makes you feel better about the world like protect the woman that is being abused, meditate, or hunt to release some anger this would be their version of feeding and such.

        I am not sure their is a direct corrilation for blood resonance but I could see them having some sort of benifits for having more honor glory or wisdom and having deeds of renown be the way that these are increased which give you a fleeting bonus for the deed that you did maybe. Especially since degradation is not really a core concept of WtA, but loosing your self to your rage is.

        Gnosis is your connection to your spiritual side so they could do some sort of humanity treatment with this and makes stains be things that you do that are harmful to Gaia and this could also have chronicle tenants associated with it. They may also use this as the blood mechanic instead and have it be the thing that is like the hunger track.

        I could also see them doing away with the need to fuel gifts and abilities altogether for werewolves as well. I don't think I would have a problem with that. they would still need renown and rank requirements to use and learn them though.

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        • #19
          I love me a good rant on how Core themes that are the very foundation of a game are "ruining it" complaining about SJW in Whitewolf games is like complaining about having to go into Dungeons and Fight Monsters in D&D and not you know be able to use it as an elaborate farm simulator.

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          • #20
            Originally posted by SalamanDer View Post
            As a curiosity, it was actually Philippos, Alexander's father.
            At Chaeronea they refused to surrender even after all their allies fled the battle and even if Philippos had tried to negotiate, suggesting to let them go away with all their armors, weapons and fallen comrades. To no avail, apparently, as the Band was firm in not retreating from a battlefield where their friends and lovers had shed their blood.
            And when the last member of the Sacred Band was put down, apparently Philippos seeing they were all fallen fighting, no one ran away, declared "Perish any man who suspects that these men either did or suffered anything unseemly."
            or, as some more cynical viewers think, he just threatened of death penalty any of his soldiers or allies that would have dared to desecrate their corpses.
            He built statues over where they fell to honour them, didn't he? There's something very noble about it.

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            • #21
              Redwulfe in my experience Rage and Gnosis are treated as background stats; deeply important mechanically, but they're not RPed out. If you have a strong link to your spiritual side that should permeate your being. So yes, being able to lose Rage and Gnosis would be a good thing in my opinion. And being able to gain it without EXP in unusual circumstances could also be a very good thing. Treat it a little bit more like Humanity.

              High Gnosis; you should be RPing them as a tad more sage, although how this comes across can vary a lot. "Sage" doesn't have to mean peaceful or kind, but you should be more "religious" in terms of the Gaian creed as your Gnosis increases.

              High Rage; you should act more bestial and with an ineffable power. You should remind the ST that humans will be scared of you if they forget, and that you radiate a predatory menace.

              RPing someone with high rage and high gnosis would be a difficult balancing act of course.

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              • #22
                I don't think 2nd Inquisition works with Werewolf I like my SAD Doing powerless investigation.


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                • #23
                  Originally posted by 11twiggins View Post
                  He built statues over where they fell to honour them, didn't he? There's something very noble about it.
                  Yes, that too.
                  What i was pointing out, though, was that their bravery was enough that he threatened of death, the men that had fought for him. That's a badass respect


                  Dark Shores: Lineages of the Great Lakes
                  Fingers of the Eldest: Bogatyri

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by 11twiggins View Post

                    I mean we've slipped from "I don't want it to be LGBT trendy SJW stuff" to "I don't want to have to consider the wellbeing of my players", this is starting to feel like quite the downward spiral (if you'll pardon the allusion).
                    I think people are misunderstanding what being told not to use content entails. I think, if most of the people here saying they don't want to leave content out, were asked by their gaming group to do so, they would.

                    Otherwise, I'm just picturing someone throwing a fit over not getting to use child murder fomor out of the blue XD


                    As for Rage/Gnosis, I think Rage is EXTREMELY well discussed in the books. Most players just cannot deal with the Curse.


                    My gallery.

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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Ana Mizuki View Post

                      I think people are misunderstanding what being told not to use content entails. I think, if most of the people here saying they don't want to leave content out, were asked by their gaming group to do so, they would.

                      Otherwise, I'm just picturing someone throwing a fit over not getting to use child murder fomor out of the blue XD


                      As for Rage/Gnosis, I think Rage is EXTREMELY well discussed in the books. Most players just cannot deal with the Curse.
                      Oh yeah I think the books cover it well, but the rules could be tweaked so that mechanically speaking it's harder to ignore the curse, you know? Although if people don't want to feel "cursed" when they play Garou, I guess they don't have to. If I were STing WTA I would play up the monstrous side of things a lot... have someone give a perspective of Garou and Fera as "Gaian Hereditary Fomori", so-to-speak, and frame their rage as a true burden. But people don't have to RP out the curse side of things if they don't enjoy it I suppose...
                      Last edited by 11twiggins; 08-30-2018, 05:44 PM.

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                      • #26
                        I think this is why I looked at Rage as the hunger mechanic for W5. Rage was a curse that had to be kept in check like hunger for vampires. The tag "When will you rage?" is much like the beast I am least the beast I become in my mind.

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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by 11twiggins View Post

                          Oh yeah I think the books cover it well, but the rules could be tweaked so that mechanically speaking it's harder to ignore the curse, you know? Although if people don't want to feel "cursed" when they play Garou, I guess they don't have to. If I were STing WTA I would play up the monstrous side of things a lot... have someone give a perspective of Garou and Fera as "Gaian Hereditary Fomori", so-to-speak, and frame their rage as a true burden. But people don't have to RP out the curse side of things if they don't enjoy it I suppose...
                          I mean, it already freaks out people passively. Rage 3 is 30% of the population avoiding you or something like that, so not a small number. Plus most garou change when they are early teens, so they typically lack any higher education. Not that trying to go to school when you freak people out, have insane trouble keeping your temper and CONSTANTLY smelling/seeing/feeling the wrongs around you, is easy.

                          But that is not what players want, they don't want their ahroun to be a moocher being supported by their kinfolk. They don't want their character to be without a cool job or an army training. THat is the crux of the issue.


                          My gallery.

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                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Ana Mizuki View Post

                            I mean, it already freaks out people passively. Rage 3 is 30% of the population avoiding you or something like that, so not a small number. Plus most garou change when they are early teens, so they typically lack any higher education. Not that trying to go to school when you freak people out, have insane trouble keeping your temper and CONSTANTLY smelling/seeing/feeling the wrongs around you, is easy.

                            But that is not what players want, they don't want their ahroun to be a moocher being supported by their kinfolk. They don't want their character to be without a cool job or an army training. THat is the crux of the issue.
                            Hmm. I suppose the books could labour on the issue more; make it crystal clear that your Garou didn't train with SWAT force black ops alpha zero, and doesn't have a medical degree or anything like that. After all you can't rise through the ranks of most organizations if you freak out (in a big or small way) almost one third of people.

                            It never occurred to me that Fera who lack Rage, like the Ananasi, are at a huge advantage. I mean is the Ananasi state a "curse"? The only horrible aspect I can see is how they tend to become more cold and detached as they age, but one could argue that's due to strengthening spiritual ties and advancing Gnosis, not anything biological or innate. Of course they rely on blood but they are well equipped to seek it, and don't fear gold or silver, or risk frenzy, and won't alienate anyone who they behave well around...

                            And yes there's something less... romantic about your character being mother nature's DPS warrior, being cut off from society and relying on the care of your semi-supernatural cousins to survive...

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                            • #29
                              My only great concern is the Rage Dice. Paradox can be described as a Scourge of the Gods over the mage's head. Hunger is the grip of the beast at the damned soul. Rage is not only a curse. Is also a gift. Rage is used to perform astonishing feats in blinding speed, strengthening the Garou in their holy war. Hunger is a Mechanic to represent the consequence of the vampiric powers, not the power that fuels it (as blood points was). Paradox is literally a increasing backlash of reality, not the source of magical powers. Their nature is be a problem in escalation, and so the mechanic of dices can work it well. But Garou are warriors, and rage is a gift of Luna. How use the mechanic of escalating problems to represent a spiritual gift of your super-human condition? Rage is fuel. Rage can protect you, high rage brings more chances to win in a fight. Rage brings the problems, but are not the core problem to the Garou's life like the Hunger for a vampire or Paradox to the mage. Rage, different paradox or hunger never was a thing to avoid in previous games. Different of Hunger and Paradox, Rage was ever a fix score evolving. In combat, you try don't be without rage points.

                              Brings the curse of rage, the social detachment, the isolation and social awkwardness of a garou needs to be made with substitution of dices and random effects of mental outbreak driven your roleplaying?

                              Another curiosity is: how will be the effects of Rage in the new system of combat? Spent Rage to attack multiple oponents? Werewolf is a game of a little more tactical combat. The new near-narrativist combat system is light rules and fluid. Eventually the combats are short and simple. Werewolf to some group has some elements of strategy and powebuilding. How to keep it in the new combat?

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                              • #30
                                Building rage could be a double edged sword in the new system as well. Say you do have a rage track and things that tick you off rases that. But at the same time your powers become more active as you rais it as well.

                                For example to powers don't become active until your rage hits certain levels and you have rage dice that could cause messy criticals. You need to fuel your powers but at the risk of loosing complete control might be interesting to balance.

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