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  • PaladinDemo
    started a topic Werewolf 5th concerns

    Werewolf 5th concerns

    Reposting this link cause great points and he's more qualified than myself.

    https://youtu.be/0tUL6VtKFxc

    If werewolf the Apocalypse fifth edition becomes a possibility, I don't want werewolf to go where vampire went. For a lot of reasons

    1. It's viseral. It helps with the gravitas of not only my actions, but other players and villains.
    2. Werewolf thrives on conflict. Physical and mental. Your a dangerous beast who can kill at a drop of a hat. Cite, Wolf man, werewolf of London, skinwalkers.
    3. shapeshifters are the original body horror. Your body warping and contorting to reshape your flesh.
    4. The topics that would be cringing. I play werewolf to do those feats that I as me normally wouldn't be able to do or have the abilities to serve Gaia that doesn't involve annoying my senators every so often.
    5. I really don't want the tribes redesigned to fit the social justus warrior narrative. Not only it's been taken care of, but like any wolf pack, there are alphas and omegas, on pack and tribal level. If pack Dynamics get tweaked to fit the new discoveries with wolf social structure then go for it.


    Got a few more but it'll sound like I'm repeating the same points. In the age of outrage and the golden hair, I want my games focused on the real matters at hand. Like any good werewolf movie, it shouldn't be soft.

  • Damian May
    replied
    Oh...must have been something from my own campaign I thought was official I've always had rare Wendigo Garou and less rare Kinfolk ( along with some Uktena and others who might once have been Croatan) among the Yupik, Aleutian and other associated peoples.

    Leave a comment:


  • Heavy Arms
    replied
    The Siberakh are a mix of Silver Fang and Wendigo that are their own Tribe despite being so small that's kinda meaningless (though they have their own Totem).

    In the BNS metaplot, Gaia sacrifices herself in some fashion to avert the battles at the end of the Revised metaplot from destroying everything. One of the side effects of this is a reversal of the "dying race" thing and an explosion in new Garou births, and long lost/fallow kinfolk bloodlines suddenly being active again.

    Leave a comment:


  • Damian May
    replied
    Originally posted by Heavy Arms View Post
    I certainly don't want BNS MET WtA to by the "W5 Bible," but there is a lot of interesting stuff in there that I think gets lost in the "Uuuuugh" factor over the more... disappointing changes in there.

    For example, I love the idea of the Arctic indigenous peoples of Eurasia suddenly having their Yeti/Wengido blood flipped back on. It's a great plot hook to challenge the previous status quo of the Tribe without losing a lot of their basic aesthetic, it challenges their early edition representational issues in a way infinitely better than Evan could ("Wendigo are more diverse, here's a white one!" not so good, "an influx of indigenous peoples that have no connection to the European colonial expansion into the Americas challenging the Wendigo self-image" awesome idea).

    .I'm likewise more concerned what's going to happen on the system level.

    Weren't there always Wendigo who didn't cross the Bering Strait?

    Leave a comment:


  • Heavy Arms
    replied
    I certainly don't want BNS MET WtA to by the "W5 Bible," but there is a lot of interesting stuff in there that I think gets lost in the "Uuuuugh" factor over the more... disappointing changes in there.

    For example, I love the idea of the Arctic indigenous peoples of Eurasia suddenly having their Yeti/Wengido blood flipped back on. It's a great plot hook to challenge the previous status quo of the Tribe without losing a lot of their basic aesthetic, it challenges their early edition representational issues in a way infinitely better than Evan could ("Wendigo are more diverse, here's a white one!" not so good, "an influx of indigenous peoples that have no connection to the European colonial expansion into the Americas challenging the Wendigo self-image" awesome idea).

    .I'm likewise more concerned what's going to happen on the system level.

    Leave a comment:


  • werewolf43
    replied
    I have personal concerns about game mechanics, gifts and rites redesign for ,,brand new rouse/geting angry?" system. I like many points in storyline presented by new MET WtA. But I have bad feelings that it may change in WtA5

    Leave a comment:


  • Damian May
    replied
    Originally posted by Ana Mizuki View Post

    Aka, BNS MET WtA book is the guide. Has been so far at least.
    **shudder**

    Leave a comment:


  • Ana Mizuki
    replied
    Originally posted by Damian May View Post
    As I've said before they'll blow up some major caerns. maybe allof them, kill off a bunch of powerful NPCs, split the nation into various parts, maybe kick a couple of tribes out......basically they'll burn everything down just cos they can. Plus mix some Forsaken in to be even more annoying.
    Aka, BNS MET WtA book is the guide. Has been so far at least.

    Leave a comment:


  • Damian May
    replied
    Originally posted by HardestadtTheEvenYounger View Post
    Changing the subject a bit, and going by the alterations to the meta made by V5, how much do you want to bet that they'll kill King Albrecht in the new edition and make the Shadow Lords the new Alpha Tribe?
    As I've said before they'll blow up some major caerns. maybe allof them, kill off a bunch of powerful NPCs, split the nation into various parts, maybe kick a couple of tribes out......basically they'll burn everything down just cos they can. Plus mix some Forsaken in to be even more annoying.
    Last edited by Damian May; 09-19-2018, 09:45 AM.

    Leave a comment:


  • HardestadtTheEvenYounger
    replied
    Changing the subject a bit, and going by the alterations to the meta made by V5, how much do you want to bet that they'll kill King Albrecht in the new edition and make the Shadow Lords the new Alpha Tribe?

    Leave a comment:


  • Heavy Arms
    replied
    So... a bunch of non-scientific arguments with no data to back them up, by a guy that sold out to energy companies because trying to do real science to by up his claims didn't pan out of him.

    Seems like my, "This sounds like the "professional scientists" you're going to cite are those mysterious "3%" of scientists that claim anthropogenic sources of climate change don't matter." prediction was spot on.

    Not "don't matter", but "are one of several" including sun activity, cycles of heating/cooling, etc.
    You do realize that things like that - on the scale of change we're looking at - usually take longer to cycle than human civilization has existed?

    Yeah, sure, we're currently a blip on the geological time scale, and what's disastrous to us is nothing to the course of life on Earth over the long haul.

    That's no reason to kill ourselves and thousands of other species when we don't have to.

    They became central in last half a millennium max.
    Um... duh? Humans didn't have the technology and population to cause the level of impact we're causing now until recently.

    ...and in the end it's the planet/Gaia at the center stage.
    So... why is Gaia always in the background of the games? I mean, Gaia literally exists in WtA. But you can never talk directly to her. It's an epic quest just to try to get an audience with one of her high level avatars. If you're lucky you might meet a Kami that might have heard Gaia's voice once.

    Gaia isn't center stage, because the fate of planet is what the fight is over, not what the fight entails. Humanity has always been front and center in the books as the main arena of the fight.

    If you need Humans as the center of cosmos, not just a powerful species, you need to "go to mage".
    You need to consider shopping somewhere other than Strawman Barn for your arguments.


    This is a report stating that we need to do more about global poverty, not that things are going great. To quote the foreward:

    "I am confident that this report will go down as a major work of scholarship in an area of urgent global concern. The World Bank Group staff and I thank Tony and the Commission for their thoughtful analyses and recommendations. I would like to hope that they will be instrumental in improving our understanding of the extent of poverty and in making progress toward the goals of ending extreme poverty and promoting shared prosperity."

    You notice the lack of, "Yay, we solved it!" there?

    Also, this is a report on how to monitor poverty, it doesn't really make many final determinations on things like how to handle climate refugees besides the basic logic that decreasing individual poverty and community insolvency makes people more resilient to change and other communities more capable of absorbing populations that have to move.

    Pinker is a cognitive scientist, not a climatologist (at least you cited a physicist and some economists before). While his goal of trying to get people to be realists over falling for sensationalism is noble, that doesn't mean there aren't big problems. He's also extremely prone to being extremely Eurocentric in his selection of data (things look really rosy when you ignore how you can't just export European liberal democracy to the world and suddenly everything will look like the EU's top 10 countries), and horrible at accepting negating factors to his points if they buck his promotion of the Enlightenment esp. when it comes to how flawed much of the Enlightenment was (he supports the idea that there is a genetic sex based difference in STEM performance with zero regard to centuries of women being excluded from participation in such pursuits).

    So, yeah, it's good to have people out there going, "Hey, it's not all doom and gloom, there's hope, there's good, we need to fight for that instead of fighting each other." That doesn't mean you get to jump all the way to, "global deaths from natural disasters are on the decline, so there's no need to rebuild Puerto Rico's infrastructure or obey mandatory evacuation orders, hurricanes just aren't as big of a problem any more!"

    Also... Pinker's a Technocrat mouth piece if there ever was one... so go to Mage?

    Yeaah, in the past they just died. or invaded neighbors and killed/enslaved them.
    We're still doing all these things.

    Don't compare situation to unattainable ideal, compare to IRL past, a very unpleasant one.
    Wtf are you even talking about?

    Weaver based?
    Reforestation and reintroduction efforts, environmental legislation, pretty much everything Pinker talks about as the net positivities of civilization and the way technology and rational thought will save us, etc. That's all Weaver.

    How is uncontrolled, explosive chaos 'weaver'?
    What significant uncontrolled and explosive chaos are we talking about? Most of the chaos world wide is either humans mucking things up with irresponsible use of Weaver tech (yay drug resistant diseases evolving rapidly!), or more Wyrm than Wyld in application (nothing new or really all that chaotic about a tornado in the grand scheme, but they sure are destructive).

    How is explosive development of new species, minerals, modes of thought considered 'weaver'?
    Well, when the developments of new species are driven by technology instead of nature... that's what we call Weaver in WtA. Sorry, but that's just proving my point.

    Discovering new things is pretty neutral. A mineral sitting around in a cave for a few million years that humans just discovered isn't an explosive bit of anything. There are a bunch of new minerals... that are oh wait the product of technology again, not nature randomly and chaotically forming brand new ones out of the blue.

    Modes of thought? How do you even propose to measure the rate of development of mode of thought? How are we not still solidly in Weaver territory here?

    New species of drug resistant bacteria, yearly virus waves, new hybrid plants and animals transported through freight carriers, genemodded/mutated species let loose wild and thriving, new "age of crystals" brought through human activity.
    Right... "human activity" aka technology, aka the Weaver, not the Wyld.

    Also, 99% of this is just organisms doing what they've always done, but with extra inputs. It's like claiming that North American wolves discovering sheep when Europeans introduced them as a viable food source represents some major change in nature. It doesn't. Bacteria have been in a war against antibacterial compounds since before animals evolved (there's a reason plants are the origin of antibiotics and researches are still phyto-mining in hopes of finding new ones). Some viruses have been using cyclical wave propagation as far back as we can study because it's a reliable infection pattern with animals. Plants hybridize all the time, it's basically an essential aspect of 'plant' beyond the basic definition of the Kingdom, there isn't an explosion in plant hybrids (besides purposefully made human ones anyway) there's just an explosion in people genetically testing plants to realize they're dealing with more hybrids than individual species.

    And invasive species is definitely explosively happening now (though again, because of humans, not the Wyld) and it's horrible for the environment. Zebra mussels might be thriving... that doesn't mean it's a good thing for the Great Lakes.

    Don't misunderstand me and get hackles up.
    If you don't want to get my hackles up:

    1) Learn how to cite scientists better.

    2) Don't make an argument that is basically, "there's no reason to worry about climate change disasters because the Technocracy will fix it all and got to Mage for disagreeing with me!" bull shit.

    3) Don't cite shills for the energy corporations, or people that think that the earlier Enlightenment's sexism is justified, as reasons for why things aren't so bad. The fact that people like these aren't considered quacks is part of the problem even if they talk a good talk.

    4) Don't tell me to "got to Mage" because you don't have a leg to stand on regarding the themes of Werewolf.

    5) Stop using human technological impacts on the environment as justification of a Wyld resurgence

    I'm not saying there are no problems whatsoever, I'm saying situation is not nearly as apocalyptic and far different then seen in 1990-2000 when the main mood of the game was developed.
    The way you're making this argument is effectively the same thing.

    You're basically say that if an average of five less people die per capita from gun violence this year than last year, that gun violence is still a problem, but it's not one that actually matters and we can ignore of something else.

    That's not how reality works, and that's not how a game that focuses on a real world issue should work. The climate change models are still horrible without change. Will life go on? In the real world sure. In WtA? That level of destruction is a fail condition because it means the Wyrm wins. WtA has a spirit of corruption that we don't have to consider IRL.

    Same thing happened with Technocracy, which was reworked in new editions.
    The Technocracy is a faction of mages, not a fundamental theme of the game. And the change is more in adding nuance to the Technocracy to leave room to play it, rather than really changing the core of its narrative role.

    And something that has been part of WtA from the get go? The Garou suck at nuance. A key part of the game is that they're fighting something far more nuanced than they're really equipped for (largely because of their ancestors' past failings). The Garou are mostly hammers seeing everything as nails, in a world that needs someone to build an Erector set, with minority of them desperately trying to make the rest see things more clearly.

    There's no reason to dump that. That still matters... that matters for the reasons some of the people you cite would agree with! The Garou are not good environmentalists, they're reactionary terrorists (from a human perspective) that want to be good environmentalists but don't know how as a society. WtA has always had an element of highlighting both the need to protect the environement, and an element that the Garou go too far when we consider how to reflect this in our own lives.

    "Refreshing" the approach misses the whole damned point.

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  • Warpwind
    replied
    Originally posted by Heavy Arms View Post

    If you want to go there, start citing some.

    This sounds like the "professional scientists" you're going to cite are those mysterious "3%" of scientists that claim anthropogenic sources of climate change don't matter.

    Bullshit. Humans have always been central to WtA because humans are at the center of the fight over the future of our planet. Human born werewolves are the most numerous ones, which is why the Tribes are so dominated by human-centric ethnic concerns and social issues.

    I don't need to "go to Mage."

    Again, citation.

    They are worse than ever, and even if management solutions have improved, they're being taxed beyond their limits as the numbers grow beyond funding and similar allocations.

    Probably, but I don't see how it comments on the point that Weaver based solutions overpowering the Wyld is at all a symbol of the Wyld resurgence.


    https://wattsupwiththat.com/2018/08/...actually-fake/

    Not "don't matter", but "are one of several" including sun activity, cycles of heating/cooling, etc.

    They became central in last half a millennium max. and in the end it's the planet/Gaia at the center stage. If you need Humans as the center of cosmos, not just a powerful species, you need to "go to mage".

    https://openknowledge.worldbank.org/handle/10986/25141
    https://stevenpinker.com/publication...m-and-progress

    Yeaah, in the past they just died. or invaded neighbors and killed/enslaved them. Don't compare situation to unattainable ideal, compare to IRL past, a very unpleasant one.

    Weaver based? How is uncontrolled, explosive chaos 'weaver'? How is explosive development of new species, minerals, modes of thought considered 'weaver'? New species of drug resistant bacteria, yearly virus waves, new hybrid plants and animals transported through freight carriers, genemodded/mutated species let loose wild and thriving, new "age of crystals" brought through human activity.


    Don't misunderstand me and get hackles up. I'm not saying there are no problems whatsoever, I'm saying situation is not nearly as apocalyptic and far different then seen in 1990-2000 when the main mood of the game was developed. Same thing happened with Technocracy, which was reworked in new editions. Instead of doubling down on the same old things I would prefer a refreshed approach.
    Last edited by Warpwind; 09-16-2018, 02:48 PM.

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  • Robert D
    replied
    Mechanically, I'm interested to see how character creation changes. My bet is they will follow the same basic model from V5, with simplified skill list and selection. I've heard a few folks mention that the Hunger mechanic will be mirrored by a Rage mechanic (and the Animalism discipline outright mentions being able to sense and reduce or induce Frenzy or Rage with capital first letters). I'd imagine that rather than a "Predator type" we'd see some equivalent to the Auspice of the character, to reflect how they approach their devotion to Gaia and the fight against the Wyrm. Tribe will take the place of Clan would be my next guess. My biggest area of questioning is what will be the new Gifts. Will there be a simplfying of the Gift list, or perhaps organizing them based on the spirit types that give them with tribes & auspices having affinities for certain spirits perhaps? Another food for thought: will the Breed give skill bonuses to reflect upbringing? how will it be manifested? Will there be Gnosis, or will there be a soothing of Rage in place of Gnosis as a separate resource, as Rage and spiritual peace would be a form of balancing act?

    Leave a comment:


  • Saur Ops Specialist
    replied
    Originally posted by Warpwind View Post
    So, sjw staff aside. How do you think White Wolf will deal with new info being floating around, like forests expanding exponentially, wildlife returning to Europe and moving into cities, basically an invasion of new hybrids, runaway biomodded lifeforms and wildlife moving into cities? as well as plastic being not as toxic as thought, Age of Crystals caused by humans and other drastic changes to both opinion and actual ecosystem not anticipated by WtA.

    Seems like Wyld gaining an upper hand and starting to subsume Weaver if you ask me.
    In the WoD, large portions of forests and other wilderness never ended up being harvested or settled because they were spooky and humans were reeling from the Impergium, and the Wyld was still assumed to be on the back foot.

    Leave a comment:


  • Heavy Arms
    replied
    Originally posted by Warpwind View Post
    1. I will believe professional scientists over you, sorry.
    If you want to go there, start citing some.

    2. Not as much, and not as humancentric as we thought.
    This sounds like the "professional scientists" you're going to cite are those mysterious "3%" of scientists that claim anthropogenic sources of climate change don't matter.

    3. It matters because? WtA centers planet, not humans (go to Mage for that).
    Bullshit. Humans have always been central to WtA because humans are at the center of the fight over the future of our planet. Human born werewolves are the most numerous ones, which is why the Tribes are so dominated by human-centric ethnic concerns and social issues.

    I don't need to "go to Mage."

    Compared to past there is an improvement anyway in such humanitarian matters.
    Again, citation.

    4. Again. migrations and conflicts caused by climate (droughts, floods) is nothing new and is managed better then ever.
    They are worse than ever, and even if management solutions have improved, they're being taxed beyond their limits as the numbers grow beyond funding and similar allocations.

    5. in that case we have drastically different understandings of 'Chaos'.
    Probably, but I don't see how it comments on the point that Weaver based solutions overpowering the Wyld is at all a symbol of the Wyld resurgence.

    Leave a comment:

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