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Raising Attributes above 5

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  • Raising Attributes above 5

    So my group is starting a mixed Classic Wold of Darkness chronicle with mages and shifters, and our Storyteller informed the mages that should they pass their Seekings and raise their Arete beyond 5 then they become capable of raising their Attribute and Abilities beyond 5 as well.

    He quoted from some book, I don't recall, but he also insisted werewolves have a similar mechanics somewhere but can't recall, so he began looking to house rule it. As it stands he's allowing me to raise attributes to 6 because I raised my Gnosis to 10 with freebie points, but became unsure how it might reach 7 or more.

    Anyhow my question is: Is there an existing mechanic for werewolves to increase Attributes above 5, or if not how should it be house ruled?

  • #2
    Originally posted by Wulfswift View Post
    So my group is starting a mixed Classic Wold of Darkness chronicle with mages and shifters, and our Storyteller informed the mages that should they pass their Seekings and raise their Arete beyond 5 then they become capable of raising their Attribute and Abilities beyond 5 as well.

    He quoted from some book, I don't recall, but he also insisted werewolves have a similar mechanics somewhere but can't recall, so he began looking to house rule it. As it stands he's allowing me to raise attributes to 6 because I raised my Gnosis to 10 with freebie points, but became unsure how it might reach 7 or more.

    Anyhow my question is: Is there an existing mechanic for werewolves to increase Attributes above 5, or if not how should it be house ruled?
    Your DM may be quoting nWOD by mistake. The only mechanics for ascention mages to raise 5+ attributes is in Masters of the Art, and only happens if they become arch-mages with 6 dots in a sphere that corresponds with said attribute. Otherwise they can use life magic to give themselves superhuman attributes, but making it permanent causes "Pattern Bleed" turning them into a thaumivore(they have to consume 1 or more quintessence a day or they die).

    Werewolves don't have a mechanic for raising attributes to superhuman levels outside of gifts, and gifts that do so are temporary. In fact, the only example I know of that is a werewolf with above 5 attributes is The BSD chosen of the green dragon(a unique spiral with strength 6 that's destined to crush the skull of the king of the silver fang).

    You could honestly just have your mage-friend pattern bleed you though. A thaumivore can buy any "Bleeding" enhancements off with XP, and they pay half the XP that the enhancement normally requires, you will have to deal with paradox flaws though(so your wolf can have strength 6+, you'll just have to deal with suddenly having metis flaws)
    Last edited by Prometheas; 08-31-2018, 07:06 AM.

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    • #3
      Indeed, it seems to me that your master is using Chronicles of Darkness rules.

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      • #4
        You can raise attributes above 5 with gifts and totems, but if the story teller allows it rank 6 garou may do that as well, being legends and all.
        An yes if a Mage raises an attribute above 5 paraox will hit him back.
        Last edited by Story Letter; 09-02-2018, 07:08 AM.

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        • #5
          Originally posted by Story Letter View Post
          You can raise attributes above 5 with gifts and totems, but if the story teller allows it rank 6 garou may do that as well, being legends and all.
          An yes if a Mage raises an attribute above 5 paraox will hit him back.
          Technically, most of the times that Gifts do it, they're adding to the dice pool. The same thing applies to various planetary aspect/zodaical merits.

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          • #6
            Alright well, I talked to him about it and he said the information on mages getting attributes above 5 was in a book called "The Art of Mastery" but when I told him I could find no record of that booke, but Masters of the Art sounded like exactly what he was talking about he said that must be it. He also said he doesn't care if there is not a rule in any books for it, it's how he's always played it, houseruled or not he intends to make it happen. The only question comes to what the best method is to houserule it for werewolves.

            Also, to be fair, I advised him against it as it's tipping the balance greatly and if everything becomes too easy it won't be fun, conversely if everything is too hard it also won't be fun. He understands my concern and assures me this will be fun and not to worry about it. Since he's determined to do it, it's really only come down to the how, no ifs. Originally he was saying he'd tie it to Gnosis, but Gnosis is not that expensive to raise and is not restricted at all, anyone who wanted to could just start with 10 Gnosis and get pump up to 10 in an attribute. He then said he'd tie the 6 to having 10 Gnosis and it'd raise to 7 when the werewolf spends 10 points of temporary Gnosis, I told him that would not be hard and involve no extra cost to raise it, he then made it 20 temporary Gnosis and I told him it'd really skew the game into making spending and aquiring Gnosis just become the grind to pump stats, which seems too easy and counterintuitive. He talked about tying it to Rage, but we have a Nuwisha in the group and she doesn't have Rage. He then said he'd think of something...

            I recommended tying it to Rank, as while it has no actual exp cost, it can't really just be a grind, raising it requires various sorts of actions and encourages more RPing the character. It's also already tied in with increasing in power, what with getting stronger gifts. Not to mention with 6 being the highest Rank I've seen mentioned, that's 5 in attributes at Rank 1 and 6 at Rank 2 and so forth until 10 at Rank 6. It also isn't something that can just be forced so easily. But he didn't like tying it to Rank, he's evidently not fond of Rank, he's been in chat RPs where other players lorded their higher Rank over others and so forth. I insisted that wasn't what Rank had to be and he continued to insist he'd think of something. He eventually decided to tie it to Renown, so having higher Glory allowing raising physical attributes higher and Honor with social and Wisdom with Mental attributes. I told him it's almost the same thing as tying it to Rank, so I guess I was fine with it I suppose.

            But what do you all think might be the best way to houserule it? Also, please don't reply if you're just going to say "Don't houserule it at all." I'm aware of the concerns and I adressed them with him, he's insistant on doing it. Maybe I'll just prove to him how broken it is and convince him to rethink it, until then, we're gonna be stuck with it, what's the best way to go about it?

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            • #7
              Originally posted by Saur Ops Specialist View Post

              Technically, most of the times that Gifts do it, they're adding to the dice pool. The same thing applies to various planetary aspect/zodaical merits.

              Not always, an example is a comparison of Might of Thor and Hero's Stand, the first increases the attribute itself while the later gives dice to all attributes.

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              • #8
                There are the means to raise certain Attributes and Abilities in Werewolf: The Apocalypse, such as associating with a certain totem, Gifts that do such -- or certain fetishes that boost your attributes/abilities. (for example there's a Get of Fenris fetish that does this, from what I remember it was level 4 or 5).
                Last edited by Darko; 09-03-2018, 10:41 AM.

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by Story Letter View Post


                  Not always, an example is a comparison of Might of Thor and Hero's Stand, the first increases the attribute itself while the later gives dice to all attributes.
                  Those are temporary boosts. I was talking about permanent additions.

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Wulfswift
                    Alright well, I talked to him about it and he said the information on mages getting attributes above 5 was in a book called "The Art of Mastery" but when I told him I could find no record of that booke, but Masters of the Art sounded like exactly what he was talking about he said that must be it.
                    Oh, it's Masters of the Art. It's not a great rule, the book wanted to make mages tanamout to vampires with powers/stats that go up to 10 but mages really don't work like that. The idea of mages raising atributes past 5 without magick it's controvertial.
                    Also it's not very usual to implement it because you need Archspheres, and those are way more controvertial. And when you're that high and mighty you're better off expending your xp in Spheres anyway

                    He eventually decided to tie it to Renown, so having higher Glory allowing raising physical attributes higher and Honor with social and Wisdom with Mental attributes. I told him it's almost the same thing as tying it to Rank, so I guess I was fine with it I suppose.
                    That doesn't sound terrible. Characters that want to raise physicall will try to murder everything, others that want to raise mental will go to solve enigmas and plan strategy. I'm not sure how well Honor maps to social traits though - it does have a place for finding diplomatical solutions sometimes, but Manipulation doesn't sound like a very Honorable Trait to me (the other are odd too. I mean, Appearance?, really?...I guess Honor it's sexy among Garou...).
                    Maybe you can dissociate the traits a bit: Like have Wisdom take Manipulation, Honor take Stamina, and Glory have Wits. It ain't going to fit, but it may be better.
                    Last edited by Aleph; 09-03-2018, 04:05 PM.

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Saur Ops Specialist View Post

                      Those are temporary boosts. I was talking about permanent additions.

                      From Gifts ? Is there a gift that gives them permanently ?

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Story Letter View Post


                        From Gifts ? Is there a gift that gives them permanently ?
                        Generally not physical boosts, no, but you have stuff like King Fish, Satyr's Wisdom, and No Hidden Thing, along with the aforementioned planetary rising merits (Venus Rising basically makes your Charisma one dot higher, Mars Rising gives you an extra die on any given combat or damage roll).

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Prometheas View Post
                          In fact, the only example I know of that is a werewolf with above 5 attributes is The BSD chosen of the green dragon(a unique spiral with strength 6 that's destined to crush the skull of the king of the silver fang).
                          I remember there is also an example called "The-First-Ronin" (Maybe name is wrong) in Book of the Wyrm 1st . His Stats is even higher than Zhyzak , also has Physicals above 5 . To tell the truth , I don't think this guy is a shifter(He may be hundreds of years old ). But I guess this may be a writer's joke? His Stats is removed in 2ed , only leaves Background . In W20 he is completely removed .

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                          • #14
                            First Ronin's stats are higher than zhyzhack as rank 5 garou not as rank 6 legend.
                            http://whitewolf.wikia.com/wiki/Zhyzhak

                            Though it makes me really sad that the book of Wyrm didn't include stats for the Champions of Wyrm.
                            Last edited by Story Letter; 09-08-2018, 02:50 PM.

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                            • #15
                              Mages or convoluted, and don’t raise attributes by arete by the book, but personally my house rule does treat Arete more like Wan Gui enlightenment and Mummy balance and I allow arete to be the new trait limit.

                              For werewolf I feel you. I personally have rank be th limit, so once they become 6th rank they can go beyond human traits. Kitsune and Black Spirals have 9 ranks, but you start becoming more spirit and god past Rank 6.


                              It is a time for great deeds!

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