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  • Wulfswift
    started a topic Raising Attributes above 5

    Raising Attributes above 5

    So my group is starting a mixed Classic Wold of Darkness chronicle with mages and shifters, and our Storyteller informed the mages that should they pass their Seekings and raise their Arete beyond 5 then they become capable of raising their Attribute and Abilities beyond 5 as well.

    He quoted from some book, I don't recall, but he also insisted werewolves have a similar mechanics somewhere but can't recall, so he began looking to house rule it. As it stands he's allowing me to raise attributes to 6 because I raised my Gnosis to 10 with freebie points, but became unsure how it might reach 7 or more.

    Anyhow my question is: Is there an existing mechanic for werewolves to increase Attributes above 5, or if not how should it be house ruled?

  • Saur Ops Specialist
    replied
    Originally posted by Aleph View Post

    Well, in the Book of the Wyrm it's stated that BSD dance the Black Spiral to get Rank. Each level or circle of the spiral allows a BSD to raise to the equivalent level of Rank by using a ritual (i.e you dance the 2nd circle to get Rank 2). Since the Black Spiral has 9 known circles, it's reasonable to say that there's at least 9 Ranks attainable by dancing trough it. There's one legendary BSD said to have reached the 9th circle: "Number Two".

    Oh, he's an Incarna now.

    Who knows?, maybe that's what happens when you somehow break past the 6th Rank.
    Much like the Kitsune, the game isn't structured for it, and it wasn't likely to come up during most of W:tA's run, so it's not necessarily reasonable to say that the additional circles represent potential ranks 7-9. Especially when the Dancers that make it past a certain point just turn into really powerful spirits instead - not just #2, but also Hakaken, the Heart of Fear, one of the bane totems of the Dancers, who was once a Hakken Shadow Lord.

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  • geeklord1
    replied
    Originally posted by Aleph View Post

    Well, in the Book of the Wyrm it's stated that BSD dance the Black Spiral to get Rank. Each level or circle of the spiral allows a BSD to raise to the equivalent level of Rank by using a ritual (i.e you dance the 2nd circle to get Rank 2). Since the Black Spiral has 9 known circles, it's reasonable to say that there's at least 9 Ranks attainable by dancing trough it. There's one legendary BSD said to have reached the 9th circle: "Number Two".

    Oh, he's an Incarna now.

    Who knows?, maybe that's what happens when you somehow break past the 6th Rank.
    Ah. I thought I saw in Book of the Wyrm 2nd Edition that the Rite of Passage for BSDs required the first 3 or 4. But I don't have the book in front of me right now. I could be misremembering. If I am...neat -commences evil planning-

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  • Aleph
    replied
    Originally posted by geeklord1 View Post

    What book is that in? I know there were Kitsune legends of rank 9 but I've never seen it for BSD
    Well, in the Book of the Wyrm it's stated that BSD dance the Black Spiral to get Rank. Each level or circle of the spiral allows a BSD to raise to the equivalent level of Rank by using a ritual (i.e you dance the 2nd circle to get Rank 2). Since the Black Spiral has 9 known circles, it's reasonable to say that there's at least 9 Ranks attainable by dancing trough it. There's one legendary BSD said to have reached the 9th circle: "Number Two".

    Oh, he's an Incarna now.

    Who knows?, maybe that's what happens when you somehow break past the 6th Rank.
    Last edited by Aleph; 09-11-2018, 09:30 AM.

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  • Lachdanan
    replied
    Sorry, below my cynism will come to fore. Readers' discretion advised.

    Originally posted by Wulfswift View Post
    He also said he doesn't care if there is not a rule in any books for it, it's how he's always played it, houseruled or not he intends to make it happen.
    Your storyteller will seriously mess the whole system. With increased attributes the Gift's power will fly out of the window. If he really likes to throw buckloads of dice, try Shadowrun any edition.

    Originally posted by Wulfswift View Post
    The only question comes to what the best method is to houserule it for werewolves.
    No way is the best way. PERSONALY I find this the worst idea I've read on this forum in the last (few) years.

    If a power mongering fool (a character, I meant) want to really play INCREADIBLE HULK WITH SUPER INTELLIGENCE? BUT FASTER THEN SUPERMAN, WtA is not his game. It's about fallible heroes and mighty sacrifices. Or let a bane possess him and buy extra strength for his soul. Good deal, isn't it? Have you ever used your soul for anything?

    Originally posted by Wulfswift View Post
    Also, to be fair, I advised him against it as it's tipping the balance greatly and if everything becomes too easy it won't be fun, conversely if everything is too hard it also won't be fun. He understands my concern and assures me this will be fun and not to worry about it.
    Yep. You are totally right. And if a ST doesn’t heed the players’ call, should be left to rot in some dank place with endless supply of D&D 3.5 “epic level” materials.


    Originally posted by Wulfswift View Post
    Originally he was saying he'd tie it to Gnosis, but Gnosis is not that expensive to raise and is not restricted at all, anyone who wanted to could just start with 10 Gnosis and get pump up to 10 in an attribute.
    Hey, what? Even antedeluvians can’t get 10 in an Attribute. Let the stuff rise to 6 at Rank 6 MAY be something a game can afford, but letting a starter player raise Gnosis, and pump an Ability to hell is an another thing.
    Change your ST. It will be the best on the long run…

    Originally posted by Wulfswift View Post
    He then said he'd tie the 6 to having 10 Gnosis and it'd raise to 7 when the werewolf spends 10 points of temporary Gnosis, I told him that would not be hard and involve no extra cost to raise it, he then made it 20 temporary Gnosis and I told him it'd really skew the game into making spending and acquiring Gnosis just become the grind to pump stats, which seems too easy and counterintuitive.
    Yes, it would make it FREE OF CHARGE. Even used underwear is harder to obtain. Meditating in a Caern would make every Garou (and Fera, and Spiral, and Gaia knows what) to have Abilities high as Mount Everest.

    Originally posted by Wulfswift View Post
    He talked about tying it to Rage,
    Even a bigger bull excrement.

    Originally posted by Wulfswift View Post
    I recommended tying it to Rank, as while it has no actual exp cost, it can't really just be a grind, raising it requires various sorts of actions and encourages more RPing the character. It's also already tied in with increasing in power, what with getting stronger gifts.
    Yes, it would be the most sane way for an insane act.

    Originally posted by Wulfswift View Post
    Not to mention with 6 being the highest Rank I've seen mentioned.
    ’Cause it is.

    Originally posted by Wulfswift View Post
    that's 5 in attributes at Rank 1 and 6 at Rank 2 and so forth until 10 at Rank 6.
    About Attribute cap and Rank see my comment above.
    Originally posted by Wulfswift View Post
    he's evidently not fond of Rank, he's been in chat RPs where other players lorded their higher Rank over others and so forth.
    Rank and Renown are pillars of the Garou Social Structure. If he don’t use the Rank (rules) properly, soon you’ll be playing furry, ovverreacting superheroes.
    By the way, yeh, Elders talk, bulsh*t walks. But if the said Garou abuse her rights, she will be, eventually, deranked.

    Originally posted by Wulfswift View Post
    He eventually decided to tie it to Renown, so having higher Glory allowing raising physical attributes higher and Honor with social and Wisdom with Mental attributes. I told him it's almost the same thing as tying it to Rank, so I guess I was fine with it I suppose.
    Seem to be an acceptable way. And no, high renown doesn’t automatically means high rank. For example a theurge with 10 Glory and 0 Wisdom will be a Cub.

    Originally posted by Wulfswift View Post
    But what do you all think might be the best way to houserule it? Also, please don't reply if you're just going to say "Don't houserule it at all."
    I’m a strict and harsh St. If I would allow it (taken everything into account what we’ve wrote above), I would stick it to Rank 6 and/or MAX renown in one category to let a player increase a relevant attribute to 6. But not more.

    By the way, what the heck would you like to do with so high attributes. Yeh, they are cool, but the antagonists are not normal humans, but supernaturals. If you can have godly attributes, they also can. And if everybody have a big Richard, it’s just average. Also the game will be a Dragonball like abomination with supersarayan powers.

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  • geeklord1
    replied
    Originally posted by Eldagusto View Post
    Mages or convoluted, and don’t raise attributes by arete by the book, but personally my house rule does treat Arete more like Wan Gui enlightenment and Mummy balance and I allow arete to be the new trait limit.

    For werewolf I feel you. I personally have rank be th limit, so once they become 6th rank they can go beyond human traits. Kitsune and Black Spirals have 9 ranks, but you start becoming more spirit and god past Rank 6.
    What book is that in? I know there were Kitsune legends of rank 9 but I've never seen it for BSD

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  • Eldagusto
    replied
    Originally zhyzhak was supposed to have gotten her super strength from being reborn through Granmaw Thunderwyrm which remakes you into a Ferectoi. Later editions I believe changed it to the Green Dragons Favor raised her stats.

    In my personal Headcanon I have the First Ronin as the Horseman of War and he resembles the Beast, from Angel that stony super monster, in homid form and like Nightmaster each of his forms are like different boss fights.

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  • Eldagusto
    replied
    Mages or convoluted, and don’t raise attributes by arete by the book, but personally my house rule does treat Arete more like Wan Gui enlightenment and Mummy balance and I allow arete to be the new trait limit.

    For werewolf I feel you. I personally have rank be th limit, so once they become 6th rank they can go beyond human traits. Kitsune and Black Spirals have 9 ranks, but you start becoming more spirit and god past Rank 6.

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  • Story Letter
    replied
    First Ronin's stats are higher than zhyzhack as rank 5 garou not as rank 6 legend.
    http://whitewolf.wikia.com/wiki/Zhyzhak

    Though it makes me really sad that the book of Wyrm didn't include stats for the Champions of Wyrm.
    Last edited by Story Letter; 09-08-2018, 02:50 PM.

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  • Rock113
    replied
    Originally posted by Prometheas View Post
    In fact, the only example I know of that is a werewolf with above 5 attributes is The BSD chosen of the green dragon(a unique spiral with strength 6 that's destined to crush the skull of the king of the silver fang).
    I remember there is also an example called "The-First-Ronin" (Maybe name is wrong) in Book of the Wyrm 1st . His Stats is even higher than Zhyzak , also has Physicals above 5 . To tell the truth , I don't think this guy is a shifter(He may be hundreds of years old ). But I guess this may be a writer's joke? His Stats is removed in 2ed , only leaves Background . In W20 he is completely removed .

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  • Saur Ops Specialist
    replied
    Originally posted by Story Letter View Post


    From Gifts ? Is there a gift that gives them permanently ?
    Generally not physical boosts, no, but you have stuff like King Fish, Satyr's Wisdom, and No Hidden Thing, along with the aforementioned planetary rising merits (Venus Rising basically makes your Charisma one dot higher, Mars Rising gives you an extra die on any given combat or damage roll).

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  • Story Letter
    replied
    Originally posted by Saur Ops Specialist View Post

    Those are temporary boosts. I was talking about permanent additions.

    From Gifts ? Is there a gift that gives them permanently ?

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  • Aleph
    replied
    Originally posted by Wulfswift
    Alright well, I talked to him about it and he said the information on mages getting attributes above 5 was in a book called "The Art of Mastery" but when I told him I could find no record of that booke, but Masters of the Art sounded like exactly what he was talking about he said that must be it.
    Oh, it's Masters of the Art. It's not a great rule, the book wanted to make mages tanamout to vampires with powers/stats that go up to 10 but mages really don't work like that. The idea of mages raising atributes past 5 without magick it's controvertial.
    Also it's not very usual to implement it because you need Archspheres, and those are way more controvertial. And when you're that high and mighty you're better off expending your xp in Spheres anyway

    He eventually decided to tie it to Renown, so having higher Glory allowing raising physical attributes higher and Honor with social and Wisdom with Mental attributes. I told him it's almost the same thing as tying it to Rank, so I guess I was fine with it I suppose.
    That doesn't sound terrible. Characters that want to raise physicall will try to murder everything, others that want to raise mental will go to solve enigmas and plan strategy. I'm not sure how well Honor maps to social traits though - it does have a place for finding diplomatical solutions sometimes, but Manipulation doesn't sound like a very Honorable Trait to me (the other are odd too. I mean, Appearance?, really?...I guess Honor it's sexy among Garou...).
    Maybe you can dissociate the traits a bit: Like have Wisdom take Manipulation, Honor take Stamina, and Glory have Wits. It ain't going to fit, but it may be better.
    Last edited by Aleph; 09-03-2018, 04:05 PM.

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  • Saur Ops Specialist
    replied
    Originally posted by Story Letter View Post


    Not always, an example is a comparison of Might of Thor and Hero's Stand, the first increases the attribute itself while the later gives dice to all attributes.
    Those are temporary boosts. I was talking about permanent additions.

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  • Darko
    replied
    There are the means to raise certain Attributes and Abilities in Werewolf: The Apocalypse, such as associating with a certain totem, Gifts that do such -- or certain fetishes that boost your attributes/abilities. (for example there's a Get of Fenris fetish that does this, from what I remember it was level 4 or 5).
    Last edited by Darko; 09-03-2018, 10:41 AM.

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